Ep. 43 - Am I Sinless?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Me being righteous was kind of like what you were saying. It's. It's a future reality. It's maybe something to hope for. Like someday when I get to heaven. Yes. I'll finally be that righteous person. But it's not right now. [00:00:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:00:14] Speaker A: That's. That's. [00:00:15] Speaker B: That's. [00:00:15] Speaker A: I think this is the reality. I think this is where most believers really are at, is struggling with those ideas and those thoughts and struggling to really believe the truth of what's. What God says of us as his children. [00:00:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:27] Speaker A: And because we struggle with the sins in our members, as Paul speaks of it, we can't accept this reality of us being righteous. [00:00:37] Speaker C: And our flesh will never be saved. Our flesh. And so I love that you just said that, man. So we have a choice. Can I present my members as holiness, or am I presenting my members as going after the old ways? And it's a choice. [00:00:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:00:55] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:56] Speaker A: We welcome you to our 43rd episode of let's Talk Life. Carl and I, Zach here, we have been on a journey for a long time together. We didn't even know it. We didn't know it, but we are first cousins. Of course, we grew up in different states, and so we weren't always together, but both really coming to believe the enemy's lies in our life. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:21] Speaker A: And all of that to say that 40 years later, here we are together, talking about those lies and how we've overcome them. And so it's pretty awesome, isn't it, Carl, to step into this life? [00:01:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:36] Speaker C: And it's funny that when you begin a journey like this, of God's revelation and discovery of Christ and our identity in Christ, it's like you don't always know you're on a journey. You don't know the first. The first steps. You don't know, you know, the unknown. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:54] Speaker C: And you look back and say, oh, yeah, yeah, God, you were orchestrating this. This conversation, this. You know, it's like the books that you had that you had for years. You know, one of the greatest. My favorite. One of my favorite stories is you had the true Facebook so long ago. [00:02:12] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:02:13] Speaker C: Just that, you know, God. God's timing is always. His timing is always perfect. Always. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Right, Right. [00:02:20] Speaker C: Always perfect. And just whatever it is tending to us. And this as a. As a good shepherd, as a good father. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because it's really easy to be frustrated with the timing, but that's another element of trusting God is that he knows what he's doing. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:43] Speaker A: And we had that conversation with a number of Guys, just last night, and it was like, man, why. Why did it take so long? Why did it take this scenario? Why did it take this heartache? It's like, well, we just. We weren't ready. It's not that God's message wasn't there. It's not that he wasn't there. It's not that he wasn't pursuing us and loving us. [00:03:02] Speaker C: That's right. [00:03:03] Speaker A: It's just we weren't ready to receive what he was already giving to us. [00:03:09] Speaker C: That's really good. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Very interesting stuff for sure. Am I sinless? Is our topic today. So, Carl, Hey, I would love to. [00:03:20] Speaker C: I would love to know. I would love to know your. The reason for this. It's very, very. What's the word? Catchy. It catches your. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Catchy. [00:03:33] Speaker C: Am I? [00:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:34] Speaker A: Well, maybe that's why, just to pique people's interest. Um, because I think it's. All of us want to not be so overrun by sin and, you know, think, yeah, I want freedom. I want victory in this or that, right? [00:03:50] Speaker C: Oh, sure. [00:03:51] Speaker A: And I think that, yes, we can have incredible victory. But. But am I sinless? [00:03:57] Speaker B: Right? [00:03:57] Speaker A: So, I mean, the reason why I think is unquestionably there is a misunderstanding, you know, in. In what. What we're presenting, what we're teaching, what we're equipping people with. I don't know, what. What do we even call it? I don't even really know. I just call it life. I call it life in Christ. [00:04:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's what I call it too, man. [00:04:16] Speaker A: Christ in me. You know, is this. This life? And. But there's this misunderstanding that, you know, here we are teaching what we're teaching, equipping people with what we're equipping them with. And. And I think people have this mentality that we're teaching this idea that sin has been eradicated. You know, once you have this understanding, this revelation from God as a believer, and. And I think that many people would say, hey, let's go talk to. To Zach and Carl's wife and find out are they sinless and what are they going to find? You know, we're human just like anybody else and they're still. [00:04:58] Speaker C: Kids. [00:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Ask your children for sure. No, I was gonna say they. They might be even more honest. Maybe, maybe our spouses will be a little bit more gracious if other people are asking, but our kids might be a little more honest. So don't ask them. No, but this is the reality. I don't know. We. I think there's this mentality that we're trying to teach and equip people with this idea that we can get to perfection. And I don't. I don't think that's a reality. So we want to be really clear. [00:05:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:28] Speaker A: Or. [00:05:29] Speaker C: Or we get to a place where I'm never going to sin again. Or, or a place that I'm not tempted. So. So freedom means I'm not. I'm not going to sin ever again. Freedom means I'm never going to be tempted again. And I think that, like you said, there's a big misunderstanding of what that all means. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:48] Speaker A: So. And, and am I the. The perfect guy to try to get to Sakura? No, but. But it's stuff that I'm chewing on and trying to understand so that I can relay that message better to help people clear it up. And so I think, you know, we want to make it really clear that we do not believe that sin has been eradicated within the believer. Like sinless perfection is a complete lie. You know, the power of sin is broken. [00:06:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:16] Speaker A: That's the reality. And that's what we're going to teach and what. We're going to equip people with the reality of sins in our life. Yeah. They're still going to trip us up. And just when I even look at this past week, can I label all kinds of like, heinous, terrible, ugly sins? No. But I can recognize the sin of just trying to do it myself and not trusting God and, you know, anything that's not of faith, not of trusting God is sin and man. Just that verse alone is really intriguing. When I think about the whole church culture and the attender that's going to church, I think that they're going because it needs to clean them up. Or the pastor that we, you know, we've been a part of. Of that kind of ministry ourselves, and we're doing all these things that we think it's the best thing, but the reality is, if I'm doing it in my own strength, it's still sin. And that's. That's a huge thing to chew on. [00:07:20] Speaker B: Right, right. Yeah. [00:07:21] Speaker C: Just going back to those great mysteries of, of today's church culture is trust. You know, we don't know what it's like to trust God. I just, I just think as you talk about this, how about pride? I mean, just trust. [00:07:38] Speaker A: Just. [00:07:38] Speaker C: Just a sense of what, what we think in America is a great pastor, maybe not trusting at all. [00:07:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:48] Speaker C: And for sure someone who's got just a charismatic personality who, who has a great skill of talking and put some Bible points together, and it's just like, wait a minute. I can. I can see. I can sift through pride. And I don't even know if that makes any sense. [00:08:05] Speaker B: But. [00:08:05] Speaker C: But just, man, just this idea that there's no people on a. On a pedestal of spiritual perfection. The spiritual perfection is Christ. And I need Christ today, and I'm going to need him tomorrow, and I'm going to need him fully, completely, as he is living his life. And me, to me. [00:08:22] Speaker A: I don't know if that makes sense. It does. I mean, there is a great need. And at the same time as that need is there, there's also a reality that we have complete presence with him and he's with us and he's living in us. [00:08:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:38] Speaker A: And so, yes, we. We need that, but we're not in desperation, in need of that. We're like. But that's. That's. The journey is really coming to trust. And trust is hard. You know, it's. It's something that we continue to go back to. But when I just think about just trying to even clear this up and understand this. I mean, you just take from Scripture. I mean, we've been in Romans 6 a lot the last three weeks, probably now, including this this week. But Paul says, let not sin reign. He says, do not go on presenting members of your body to sin. He says, wow, shall we sin because we're not under the law, but under grace? He says, may it never be. And so it's really clear that Scripture is teaching that the believer can sin. [00:09:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:28] Speaker A: And so we're not at all saying that that's not a reality. And so we're also responsible. Right. I mean, I would say there's. The circumstances that come from. Our choices are still going to be there. So God doesn't just magically make those circumstances or those consequences, I should say, go away just because we're in Him. You know, you present yourself to sin, there's still going to be consequences to that. And so you're still going to have to live with that. And then Romans, chapter seven, too. Paul gets into, like, really his own struggle of, you know, this. The power of sins in his own life and his teaching, though, at the same time, he's. He's saying, but there is a more powerful truth. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:10:16] Speaker A: That he also knew who he is in Christ and that he also knew the one who set him completely free. And there is this incredible freedom in Christ. And it comes back down to sin versus sins, I think in the Bible and The translation and. [00:10:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:33] Speaker A: English language and a lot of stuff there. But what I just want to kind of focus on is a good word for this is what are we setting our eyes on? You know, and that's what. [00:10:46] Speaker B: Wow. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Took me from Romans 12 to Hebrews 12. You know, it says to fix your eyes on Jesus. [00:10:51] Speaker B: Wow. [00:10:52] Speaker A: And we can either do that or we can put our eyes on, because this is what it all is like. Romans 12 talks about presenting our bodies, presenting ourselves to God and. And I'll get to that in a minute. But we can also. Paul very clearly says that we can also present ourselves to sin. [00:11:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:12] Speaker A: So there's. There's the choice. We have that choice every single day. [00:11:15] Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. [00:11:18] Speaker A: So what are we fixing our eyes on? What are we believing? Are we believing the truth or are we going to trust in and our own abilities? [00:11:27] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that's where as. As a believer, follower of Jesus, however term people want to use for themselves, we get uncomfortable or discouraged when we find ourselves going back into those old patterns. And so it's like, how do I see myself? Or. Or it's kind of like, well, I thought that I wouldn't do this ever again. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:49] Speaker C: I thought I would do this. [00:11:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:50] Speaker C: Don't do this. And. And so then we just say, well, why didn't. Why doesn't God just take us to heaven? [00:11:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:57] Speaker C: So at the moment of faith, just whisk us away and. And then there's no more. So just, you know, just want to throw it out there. That, that. [00:12:07] Speaker A: No, this can lead you to some. [00:12:08] Speaker C: Discouragement of saying, well, I thought I was going to be free or whatever. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah, that's so true. Because it does. It leaves us like we stepped in to this journey when we were first introduced to Jesus and then we started to put faith in Jesus and we trusted him as our Savior. And in that beginning stage, it was like so much freedom, so much excitement, so much victory. But just like what you're saying, eventually this sin. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:44] Speaker A: That didn't really. That has taken root in my life. It wasn't being dealt with. And so it's going to creep back in. And so what do I do with that? And so that's where we will. We'll step back into thinking, well, so it must be true. I'm just a sinner. And that's where shame comes in and we bury ourselves. [00:13:09] Speaker C: Yeah, shame. Shame. Shame and fear. Great motivators. [00:13:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:13] Speaker C: And just leaves us more feeling. Feeling more disconnected and further. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:21] Speaker C: I love what you're Saying, so there's a reality that is true of each believer, and there's also a choice for each believer living this out. Would that be fair to say? [00:13:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:37] Speaker A: We can present ourselves to sin, and we can present ourselves to God. This is what I really love about Romans 12. [00:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Is. [00:13:45] Speaker A: Is I love these words. You know, we are living and we are holy, and I love this word that it uses, that we are also acceptable. [00:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:55] Speaker A: To God. And it's. It's really a beautiful picture of what right. This reality is of who we are. We are acceptable, not because of anything that we've done other than just, I'm trusting you, God. I'm trusting in what you've done. I'm trusting in the fact that you have made me new, that you have made me righteous. [00:14:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:15] Speaker A: And that's what caused me to just think, yeah, we just need to fix our eyes on Jesus. And that takes me to Hebrews 12, right? One and two. And I. I just. I love these words. You know, I'm not reading all these. These verses all out. I mean, people can do that in their own time. But I love some of these words that it says in. In Hebrews 12, 1, to lay aside. That's. There is sins. Hear that entangle? So this is the reality. We still have to. To deal with that to run this race. Like, when I just think about these three statements, it makes it sound like a lot of striving. Like, I need to lay aside this. I need to watch out for the sin that intense. I need to run this race. [00:14:57] Speaker B: Right, right, right, right. [00:15:00] Speaker A: So how do I conclude coming out of this verse, that sounds like a whole lot of striving. And I think that's the battle. I think that's the difficulty for so many believers. Is there kind of. Is this what's perceived. What is perceived as a mixed message? But I think there's just a misunderstanding, and I think that's. [00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:24] Speaker A: I would say what I want to address. [00:15:26] Speaker B: Even. [00:15:26] Speaker C: Even grace is misunderstood. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:29] Speaker C: Misunderstanding of what grace is. I mean, well, but I'm still in Romans 12 here for a second because. [00:15:33] Speaker A: It'S like, yeah, yeah, don't we. [00:15:35] Speaker C: Don't we all want to be accepted? Like, at the core value that I want to be accepted. I want to be included. I want to, you know, the fear of missing out. That. That we as a society have individual society afraid of missing out, afraid of not being invited, you know, and it's. It's like present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. [00:16:01] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:02] Speaker C: Man, I mean, there's something so beautiful about this transaction as, as the great exchange. Right. The exchange life of my unrighteousness. Exchange for the righteousness of Christ that he makes me holy. Not, not me with my merit, or striving hard to earn it or to achieve it, I have to receive it. I mean, just. It's a beautiful concept. [00:16:28] Speaker A: It really is. And I think, you know, I. I mean, I've. I've read Romans 12 all along throughout my life, growing up in the church, serving in church, all that. But I don't think I ever understood it. But it's not that I didn't understand it so much as that I just. I couldn't believe that about me, that I could be acceptable to God. And so my view of myself was really the problem. [00:16:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:56] Speaker A: And so I, I just love. And this is something that I'm chewing on still, so I don't necessarily maybe have an answer for this, but I love how it says. And he back to Hebrews 12 to run the race that is set before us. And so I'm just thinking, what does that mean that it's set before us? Is this the Christian life that we're talking about? And if so, it's like, well, who's living the Christian life? You know, it's not me to live according to a certain set of standards and rules. It's really me just trusting Christ in me and it's him in me. But I just, I just throw out this question in relating to that, is the race set before us a performance or is it a victory? And depending on how we see it, I think it's really good. It depends on how we. How we live. [00:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:44] Speaker A: And where we live. [00:17:45] Speaker C: That's really good. That's really good. And I know you also want to get into this other great, beautiful statement, commentary on viewing selves. I don't know if you'd like to share that. [00:17:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. A couple of things. Well, even just going off. Well, this is from the Cure. You know, it's one of our favorite books. I think we had the. Both the same experience, Carl and I. Oh, yeah. Like. [00:18:12] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:18:13] Speaker A: We read the first three chapters and then we went back to chapter one and started the book all over. [00:18:17] Speaker C: Wow. [00:18:17] Speaker A: And I'm not a. I'm not a reader to do that type of thing things, so that's not normal. But yeah, it was. And so another quote out of there that I wanted to share too, before I even get to the other one is he really wants. God really wants us to learn Dependence on him instead of performance. [00:18:35] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:36] Speaker A: And so the more that we can trust wow. In his reality, the more that we're gonna, you know, live in that victory. And so this other statement that's in our combined notes is your view of you. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:52] Speaker A: Is the greatest commentary. Yes. On your view of God and. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. [00:19:02] Speaker C: How do you see yourself? [00:19:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:04] Speaker A: How do you see yourself? So, yeah. Your concept of yourself and your concept of God are both very important, and I think those two are very much connected together. You. If you see God wrong, you're going to see yourself wrong. If you see yourself wrong, you're going to see God. [00:19:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:22] Speaker A: So if you don't see yourself as free, you'll constantly feel condemned. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:28] Speaker A: And feelings can become truth. Not. Not that they are truth, but they become true for you because that's what you're chewing on all the time. That's what you're speaking all the time. That's what you're saying all the time. And so in the end, you end up condemning really yourself. So what do you feel about that? [00:19:44] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, even on that, on that page, another great quote that goes along with this is if. [00:19:50] Speaker B: If I. [00:19:51] Speaker C: If I already believe that. That I'm changed. Transformed. [00:19:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:57] Speaker C: Then I'm. Then I'm maturing. Maturing, as some people want to call it, into who I. Who I already am. So I'm growing. There's growth, there is maturing, but I'm completely changed already. [00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:11] Speaker C: Now the other view is, well, I'm not really there yet. So I'm going to constantly strive with. With. With the greatest of intentions to. To change who I should be to. To somehow change into or. And I mean, even saying that's disgusting. [00:20:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:33] Speaker C: I just want to go brush my teeth because it's like I've just said a naughty word because. Because I am changed. Because if I receive Christ as my Savior, I am already all those things forgiven, free, complete, whole. All those things. [00:20:51] Speaker A: Right. Are we going to trust? It's like going back to kind of a variation of Andrew Farley's quote, you know, of what God says of me and what I say of me. If they don't line up, who's right, it's not going to be me. Am I going to trust? [00:21:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:08] Speaker A: What God says is true of me. [00:21:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:11] Speaker A: And so this. This is where I. I wanted to. To ask you this question too, and I'll answer it as well. But throughout our Christian life, what have you, Carl, believed about you actually being righteous, like before this journey? [00:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:29] Speaker A: How have you Seen yourself as being righteous. What did you do with that? [00:21:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I couldn't do anything with it. I looked at older pastors were the holy ones because they really got it together, and they probably woke up hours early to pray and commune with God, and they studied and they knew the Greek and the Hebrew and they could really tear it apart and. And big ministries. Those were holy ones. Me, I was going to heaven because I believe Jesus died for me. But that, you know, that's it. Like, that's it. [00:22:08] Speaker A: Struggling. [00:22:08] Speaker C: I keep failing. I keep messing up. I. You know, I'm trying really hard. How about you? [00:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, pretty. Pretty similar, but I. I think that I thought that I was positionally righteous. You know, that's kind of the words that. That we theologically use. [00:22:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:26] Speaker A: I thought God looks down on me. And even just that. That mentality of God, that he's looking down at me like he's so far away and that he doesn't see me. He sees Jesus in me. So it was like. Because I'm just filthy and it's not me that you see. [00:22:46] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:22:47] Speaker A: And one other thing that I thought, too, was me being righteous was kind of like what you were saying. It's. It's a future reality. It's maybe something to hope for. Like, someday when I get to heaven. Yes. I'll finally be that righteous person. But it's not right now. [00:23:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:05] Speaker A: And that's. That's. That's. I think this is the reality. I think this is where most believers really are at. Right. Struggling with those ideas and those thoughts and struggling to really believe the truth of what's. What God says of us as his children. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:21] Speaker A: And because we struggle with the sins in our members, as Paul speaks of it, we can't accept this reality of us being righteous and our fl. [00:23:31] Speaker C: Our flesh will never be saved. And so I love that you just said that, man. So we have a choice. Can I present my members as. As holiness, or am I presenting my members as. Is going after the old ways? And it's a choice. [00:23:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, even going back to that race, like. [00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:58] Speaker A: The race that's set before us. You know, we've always talked about the race being that we start. We're starting the race from the finish line. [00:24:06] Speaker C: Yes, Love that. [00:24:07] Speaker A: Or the finished line is the. Like, the way that I like to say, because it's the finished line, so. [00:24:12] Speaker B: Good. [00:24:12] Speaker C: That's good. [00:24:13] Speaker A: And I. I just think there's still endurance in this race or this thing that we call life that we're living right now. There's still an endurance. It's kind of this metaphor for this Christian life, but it's not me living the Christian life. It's me trusting. So the endurance is me learning every day what it looks like to trust God. [00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:35] Speaker A: With the reality of who I am. [00:24:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:37] Speaker A: So there is. I love how you. You went to that maturing thing or maturing. I always used to tell teenagers, because they would always say mature, and I was always used the word mature, and I say, well, mature is the more mature way to say it. So. But, yeah, this is a reality. Like, there's still this life of trust, and it's a long endurance run, so it's not easy. So. And along the way. Yes, sin can entangle us. Yeah. [00:25:08] Speaker C: Throw it off. [00:25:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:10] Speaker C: Don't need it. It's lifeless. [00:25:12] Speaker A: Right. And it's not who we are. So when we do fall into it, it's not. That's not our identity. And that really changes everything about this race that we're running. We're running it from really starting the race from the finish line. So valuable stuff. No, we're not sinless. No, we're not perfect. And that's never gonna happen. Did not. Not in this life that we're living. But we do have victory in Jesus, and. [00:25:44] Speaker C: And I would love to have the last word. [00:25:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:46] Speaker C: That's no longer our goal. [00:25:49] Speaker A: No, our goal not. [00:25:50] Speaker C: Our focus is to receive his love and to live it out. So our focus is now Christ no longer myself. How about that? [00:26:00] Speaker A: Yes. I love it. It's amazing. Then I'm able to love other people and I'm able to love God, and that's the only way it works. Amen.