Ep. 47 - Old and New Filter

[00:00:00] Speaker A: The Cure was the first book that really captured my attention. Was it for you as well? [00:00:06] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. 100%. So in the timeline, Scott, who's going to be joining us and helping lead the wild at heart, Scott Rolfe from. From mcmd in Lansing, Michigan, lived this out with me, but I don't read it. And so I finally read this in January of 2020 and it's like I can't put it down. I read the first three chapters and then I start over because I can't believe it's such good news. And it's like I need, I need to read it again. Was that's my story. And it's still like this is, this is my, you know, like when we learned to read in America was the primer. This is my primer. This is, this is what I go to. To recenter and go back to. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Grace and trust. [00:00:48] Speaker A: We are glad to have you listening, maybe watching Carl and Zach here with our podcast, let's Talk Life. We are prepping for a Michigan trip. Carl and I both. Yeah. Pastors retreat. So Carl, we get to be in person. [00:01:05] Speaker B: That's right. [00:01:07] Speaker A: We'll see if we'll record in person. No promises anyone. Just doing life. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Looking forward to it. You know, just, just there's so many things there in that lane of the new heart and trust. And we're going to be talking about one today and the one that we are talking about next week with some pastors is while the heart. And I'm looking forward to, to that time with you. We've been planning it for months and I know both of us are heading up at the end of next week. It's fresh. It's right on our, right on our. Right around the corner for sure. [00:01:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I love it. We both are doing what we love to do and just journeying with other people, especially pastors and ministry leaders. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:54] Speaker A: And you know, our topic today kind of fits right along with that. We're talking. Our title is Old and New Filter. You know, we've. We' brought up this filter thing many times. But, you know, how have you seen things for the last 20, 30 or 40 years? How do you see things now? We can really. I think the two of us, we, we could answer those questions, but there are some that, that we journey with. I mean, I know this is true for me that maybe it's true for, for some people even tuning in and listening today that you're still kind of asking this question. Like Jesus said that I'm here to give you abundant life. But it's like, well, where is that life? Why can't I find it? And so it's so amazing to be able to put on a different lens really is what I like to use. Or even rather than filter. But that's why we talk life in Christ. Because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. [00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and we knew him as the truth and we knew him as the way, the only way. [00:02:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:49] Speaker B: But the life was, was like over my head. It was like a deer in headlights. It was just, it was a foreign concept for sure. [00:02:57] Speaker A: And it's interesting because I think for many, many years we would talk about how the Holy Spirit was a foreign concept to most believers. And so I've, I've in the last couple years really processed even this whole thing. Like you have this, this three part thing happening. You have the Trinity and you have the third part of the Trinity being the Holy Spirit and us really getting that confused or just being scared because it's like too personal, it's too unknown, too supernatural. And then I. It's the same thing when you get to this. Jesus is John 14:6. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It's like we can, we can understand him being the way we can understand him. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:03:38] Speaker A: The truth. But the life is kind of like, I don't know, that is, it's obscure, it's. I can't comprehend this. And we're, we're really not meant to, I guess. Right. Well that's. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Sure. And that, that's, that's a lot part. That's like a huge part of his act that Paul says, great is the myst godliness to Timothy, you know, he says, it says God. Paul's saying, hey, who can know the mind of God? Who could be his counselor? And then another verse, you know, there's this great mystery, but I think a lot of us are like God the Father, God the Son, God the holy Word. And because I don't understand him, the Holy Spirit. And it's experienced. And maybe I haven't experienced it, like maybe having. When I say it, maybe I haven't experienced the, the transformation or. [00:04:26] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:27] Speaker B: The renewal or the opening of the eyes. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:31] Speaker B: From the Holy Spirit. So I have, so I haven't experienced him or I don't know what that looks like or I'm afraid of it. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Sure. [00:04:38] Speaker B: Because of manipulation and coercion of other groups that sort of say, well, if you have the Holy Spirit, this is what it looks like. [00:04:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:45] Speaker B: So there's fear. So all those things. [00:04:46] Speaker A: Right, right. Wow. So I, I'm kind of pulling out of the Cure. [00:04:52] Speaker B: The book. [00:04:53] Speaker A: The Cure was this. Carl, for you. The Cure was the first book that really captured my attention. Was it for you as well? [00:05:01] Speaker B: Yeah. 100. 100. So in the timeline, Scott, who's going to be joining us and helping lead the Wild at Heart, Scott Rolf from. From mcmd in Lansing, Michigan. Live this out with me. So he lived this out with me right away in April 2019. So he's living this out April 2019. May 2019, June 2019. He's living this out with me. And. But I don't read it. I don't read it. So I end up reading, I think Wild at Heart in July. July or August. And. And so I finally read this in January of 2020 and it's like I can't put it down. I read the first three chapters and then I start over because I can't believe it's such good news. And it's like I need. I need to read it again. So that was. That's my story. And it's still like, this is. This is my. You know, like when we learned to read in America, it was the primer. This is my primer. This is, this is what I go to. To re. Center and go back to. Yes, Grace and trust. How about you? [00:06:03] Speaker A: It's crazy because it's almost. It's identical. It's different, but it's. It's identical. It's. It's hard to. It is. It was my first step into really understanding. Well, first of all, I went to that John lynch conference. You emailed me along with a bunch of others that, hey, in your town there's going to be John lynch speaking. And so I went to two out of four of those and I picked up and I bought this book and you had already given it to me, so I already had a copy of it at home. So you already trying to feed this to me. And. And I tried to. I tried to take the credit instead by saying no, I did it. So anyways, I had two copies, so I was able to give one to my wife. And we journeyed through it in our. On our own time and I, I had the same. What when I say the exact same experience. I read chapters one, two and three and I did the exact same thing. It was so riveting. I started over in chapter one and just read it again and just been so cool. I. I've since have read it again, which caused me to actually take my zoom group That I have to go through this book as well. So we're going through the last two chapters, the next couple weeks, and it's just phenomenal. It really did open my eyes to just so much. The thing that I was really asking when I even resigned from church work was, where is that abundant life? Jesus speaks of this abundant life. Well, why do I not sense this life that he says that I have? I don't get it. What am I missing? And I think only because I started asking those questions, not to be critical, not to be out of frustration or anger, I was just literally going to God with a prayer of God. You open the eyes of my heart. And he did. And that was. That was actually two years even. I started praying that Ephesians one prayer. Two years before I even went to that conference. Two years before I read this book. So that. That tells you the journey, you know, and God is patient and loving and just waits for us. [00:07:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:55] Speaker A: So to finally listen. [00:07:57] Speaker B: Yeah, he is. He is gentle, patient. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So amazing. So, yeah, foundational book for the two of us. The Cure. And. And there's a heading in the discussion guide I found out of chapter two. [00:08:16] Speaker B: That is called not the. Not the Snake. I think that's the. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I have a different version, and it's got a discussion guide. [00:08:24] Speaker B: You're so good. [00:08:26] Speaker A: So I have more to talk about. No, I just. I love this taking off the filter. And it just struck me because much of what we talk about or have discussed in the past has been seeing through a new filter. [00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:08:40] Speaker A: And they're saying, taking off this old filter. And I'm just like, so which one? Which one is it? And then. Then I love the. The discussion that it gets into and some of the things, because it says, you know, which one is it? Basically, it's kind of asking like the chicken and egg question, which came first? And it presents these two things. On one hand, we have the twisted interpretation of scripture that created the lies that we tell ourselves. And on the other hand, we have the lies we tell ourselves creating this twisted interpretation of scripture. So it's asking which one came first? And so I'm. I'm processing just like our journey. And that's why I asked that about the cure and what that looked like, because what did it look like to be able to take off that old filter and to put on and see things through a new filter? And that's the journey that we've been on. And that's. That's the joy of talking this out. So I don't know what you make of all that. [00:09:35] Speaker B: Well, I'm going to bring us back to how we started, that Jesus is the way, the truth of life. And I've said this before, that every Sunday I would finish with, hey, Jesus died on the cross for your sins. You believe in him and you're saved. And so every week I could preach a message and give a message that that was true and it was life changing, but it was not complete. [00:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker B: And so I knew how to get to heaven. I knew how to tell people how to get to heaven. But understanding anything about Christ is my life. Christ in me more than anything than a theological sense. No idea how that applies in a reality, for sure. So that's my. So that was my filter, right? So my filter was salvation by grace through faith, but not understanding, even salvation as a. In the full picture. It was like. It was like incomplete. Incomplete. And then you have the filter of. Then you have the filter of shame. So it says. So that filter is saying, well, look what you did, or look what you've done, or not just look what you've done. But that's actually who you are. [00:10:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:37] Speaker B: So. So guilt. So guilt is I've done something wrong. Shame is that is me, you know, in a football sense. Guilt is stepping out of bounds. Shame is I can't move the ball down the field. You know, that there's something fundamentally wrong with me. And. And so I'm just gonna screw up. I'm just gonna keep screwing up. And yeah, it's like that's. That's the filter. So, so some sense the Bible is true, but I have no idea how it's true for me in my life. [00:11:02] Speaker A: Right. And. And it's interesting because we were these leaders that were to have the answers and to preach the answers and to give people hope and to counsel people through their issues. Right. And we couldn't really comprehend it for ourselves in a personal, identifiable way because we were still living out of that shame. And so, yeah, thank you for just putting it out that way because that, that I think is the crux of most believers. And I love. I love it when I can talk to somebody that, like, can see that there's something wrong, but they can't really understand what it is. I love the people that are smart enough to kind of get it on their own a little bit. They. They actually are reading the Bible and they're like, I went to Bible college, but I'm reading the Bible, and it's just. It's not lining up. I love, like, Teresa is a teacher at the life center that I took the class. And she didn't grow up in the church, so when she came to Christ later in life, she was able to go to church and hear a message and go, okay, but the Bible says this, and you're preaching it as if it says this. And she could, she could right away say there's something wrong with what's being stated. And of course that can be very, that can cause a lot of problems if you start asking questions. Another person, Brett here is a pastor of our church, said, I always got in trouble with all the people that I, that I worked for because I always would just ask questions. And it's like, well, shouldn't we be asking questions like, what is our motive, what is our purpose and doing what. [00:12:35] Speaker B: We'Re doing when, when we are quote, unquote, ministry leaders, pastors? Yeah, it is good to be questioned. It is, it is good to be questioned on what I say, on what I think. I, we, we can still say the wrong thing. We can still believe a lie. We can still look at things through a filter that's, that's not the filter of grace. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So isn't it just interesting to look back and think, I mean, I can speak for myself for sure, but I feel like it's probably relatable to you. We were pretty confident that we saw Christ as life. We were pretty confident that we were doing what I thought we were supposed to be doing. You know, like, this is, this is where we're at. This is, you know, we taught some of these same Bible verses where you use right now. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Because Bible didn't change. [00:13:28] Speaker A: The gospel is still the gospel. Right. We just didn't have a full understanding of what that really meant. And so I, I just think of a couple of stories of people. We moved to Florida and even before we got here, we were visiting and my, my wife Ina, she had been talking with her sister who lives down here and just talking about our, you know, kind of discovery of Christ's life and receiving his love and grace. And Lily, who is my sister in law, she of course doesn't know. I'm using her as an example here today. But, but I remember Ina telling me she was, you know, kind of feeding her some of this material, some books, some videos and having discussions with her and Lily initially she, she concluded, yeah, this is what I believe. And it was really interesting because months later we moved down here, she came back to Enid, said, you know, this, this really isn't what I've believed On my life, this is so different. And it's really starting to bring some answers to so many questions and so many things that, and so it was just really neat to see kind of that transformation. And in the same way, the youth pastor here, you know, I started just walking him through some of the stuff that I went through with my class and just kind of counseling him through some of that stuff. I don't know, it's two months in or something. He calls me on the phone and he just goes, I get it, I get it. And I'm like, what? Like, you got a new car? What are you talking about? And, and. But he was calling me out of this such excitement because his, his mind had suddenly just kind of been cemented in this reality of who he is in Christ. And he's like, I get that I'm a child of God and that I'm a child of the King. And he said the way that I kind of envisioned it, the way that it kind of cemented in my mind. Yeah, he used an illustration of I have a crown on my head and, and I failed or I made a mistake or I did this or that. [00:15:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:17] Speaker A: I felt like I should remove this crown because I don't deserve it. But he couldn't get the crown off of his head because he's a child. You can't stop being that. The child of the king. It's just who you are. [00:15:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:28] Speaker A: And so it's just such a beautiful thing to see from a couple of people. You know, just stories like that, and that's. That those stories just continue to come because we're able to just kind of walk with people, People who get to see Christ as life. [00:15:41] Speaker B: Right. Well, here's an example from, from you. And so I'm pretty sure date wise, two years ago is the conference of John. And you're talking it was September, like September 8, 9, 10. So you're talking, I mean, it's like September, then it's September here. So you're talking it's almost been two years and two weeks. And you're texting me, you're texting me saying, I, I feel like I just got saved. Like, you're, you're soaking in the greatest experience of your life. Is Christ in you, which you already had, by the way. This isn't saying I never had it. This is saying, oh, I actually understand it. This is actually, I see it. And so it goes from maybe just a simple knowledge to like full immersion, which is actually the word Paul uses for Romans 6, the immersion of Christ. And so you're saying, I feel like I just got saved. And I'm sitting, smiling, laughing, going, awesome. [00:16:39] Speaker A: Like. [00:16:39] Speaker B: Like it's exactly how I felt, you know, back. Going back to 2019. 2020. [00:16:44] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. It's so beautiful. It's so amazing to see and to then witness in other people. And then it's love. This is one of the phrases I'll always remember from classes that once you see it, you can't unsee it. Once you see Christ as life, once you recognize that this is who I am. Yeah, you can't unsee that. And so the interesting part of it is, like, boy, all my life I've been trying to not sin, and it's only caused me to sin more. [00:17:13] Speaker B: It's caused us to sin more and. [00:17:15] Speaker A: To really live in that shame even that you were talking about, because I can't do it. No. No. So it just builds up and builds up, and I'm beginning to hate myself or think so ill of myself because I just can't overcome. And when you step into really knowing who you are in Christ, it doesn't make you sinless, but it makes you sin less. Not because you're trying to not sin, simply because you know who you are and your desires change. [00:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm living for. I'm living from something, not for something. And I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to earn it. So. So I've received it and now I. [00:17:52] Speaker A: Can move it out. Yeah. Right. [00:17:53] Speaker B: It's. It's a great. It's a great. I mean, it really means a lot. I mean, this is, like, foundational truth that who I am in Christ is not based on my behavior. And it's like what I thought. I thought that's what church was about. Right. I thought that's what we, you know, we want to go and we want to be better. Yeah. We want to stop sinning and say, what if. What if I. What if this is the Father speaking? What if I told you you're a saint right now, that you receive Christ as your savior, you're fully forgiven. Christ is your life right now. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Right now. Yeah. Will we trust that reality? [00:18:26] Speaker B: Can we trust it? Yeah. We'll be just. Yeah. [00:18:29] Speaker A: That is the. Always the question. Because you get to, like, there's so many different verses. There's so many times that the Bible. I read a verse and it, like, hits me, like, I don't like that language. I don't. Because it would have been something that I never would have understood in Romans. 12, 9 is one of those. Let love be without hypocrisy. So I would, I would have left that verse saying, I'm gonna strive and try really hard to not be a hypocrite. [00:18:54] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [00:18:55] Speaker A: And you know, you know, you know what's going to happen. I'm going to be a hypocrite because. Right there's. Because I can't do it on my own. The reality now of. And this, this is the whole crux of what we're talking about. That was my old lens, that was my old filter of how I saw things. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:19:11] Speaker A: But my new way of saying things is through. Through Christ in me, who is my hope, who is everything. And I'm a new creation in Christ. You know, I've been crucified with Christ. So we have Galatians 2, 20. We have the second Corinthians 5, 17. We have all these verses that actually proclaim. And then how many times does it. Like you said, we're called saints. Yeah. Not sinners. And there's such confusion. I see things posted. I see prominent pastors even posting. [00:19:41] Speaker B: Sure. [00:19:42] Speaker A: About the gospel being preached by Tuckle, Tucker Carlson, more than better than most people in the pulpit. And I. All I'm hearing is strive hard to become a better person. And it's like, we got some problems. We don't understand who we are, truly are in Christ. And so we're trying, we're striving to not be that hypocrite. But the reality is that that hypocrisy actually vanishes when you no longer have to hide. And that's where the cure is really taking you, is to recognize you don't need to wear a mask. You need to pretend. And the more that you can live without a mask on, the more you can just be you. And naturally you're gonna sin less. Naturally you're not going to be that hypocrite. And it's a beautiful picture of who we truly are in Christ. So. [00:20:30] Speaker B: And there's a temptation, right? A temptation to go back, a temptation to put the mask on, a temptation to. To return to the old ways, you know, the filter of shame. And not, like you said, to hide, not to live in the light. [00:20:46] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. It's so true. Because we still have feelings. We still have, you know, like fear comes in. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. [00:20:56] Speaker A: I don't know what's going to happen here. And so. So then we resort. The reason, the reason we step back into is because I might be afraid of something. And so then I'm gonna try really hard to overcome that thing. And also I'm right back into striving, right back into living in the flesh. [00:21:13] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:21:14] Speaker A: And so it's, it's, it's very quickly and very easily. Can we slip right back into that? And that's, that's what I really love about chapter two of the gear is it really walks you through and helping you to understand we can actually take off these masks. We don't have to live from that. Those lies we can live from, from the truth. So it's so true, so good, so powerful. Any closing thoughts, Carl? [00:21:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's this grace is real. It really is good news, man. [00:21:41] Speaker A: It's so such good news and it's messy at the same time. [00:21:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:46] Speaker A: But the goodness of the news is so much greater than the messiness that comes with it. So yeah, we trust in that all the time.