Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The word sin appears 41 times in those few chapters, Romans 5, 6, 7 and 8, but only one time is it considered to be a verb, an action. And so if you are reading all those verses and all those words as sin, as being in action, you're going to think, I can't do this. But the reality is, the truth that you are dead to sin is that that's in my identity. That's the noun, the makeup of who I was. I was an Adam. This is who I was. But I'm no longer that man. That man has been crucified.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: That actually helps bring a lot of freedom, a lot of healing, a lot of victory. Hello and welcome to let's Talk Life. Carl and I, Zach here doing what we do, talking just that life, life in Christ. Life together with our families, with the journey. And part of our journey this last week is coming off a trip to Michigan. A short trip for both of us, probably real short for me compared to you, Carl. But we were there in Michigan just reconnecting with a group of ministry leaders connecting with family as well. You can share whatever you feel like you want to share there. To Carl, bringing. Driving your son back. So you. You flew and then drove back to Virginia. It was like.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: It was like planes and automobiles, no trains.
But. But you know when. When you have like 6 inches of snow and down here in south central Virginia and, and trying to get to an airport, trying to figure out things, then you got black eyes, got cold weather, just we can't handle it. And so just to get there was. Was a chore. But man, just. It was beautiful just being with a. Guys, kind of like a reunion of wild at heart from October.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: And to just be together again. And even that was like, is this gonna work? Like we got snow coming and you know, just so many, so many obstacles and.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: So just to. Just to experience that rest and. And I'll talk about that a little bit later, but sure. Yeah, it was, it was great being with you. I'm so glad that you could come up as well and be a part of that. Just like kind of like saying, hey, where. Where have you been since October? You know, what. What's taking place?
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Sure. You know, that was really good. And it was a good. Just couple nights too, of no agenda, just hanging out. I stayed at my parents house. You stayed at your parents? That we were. Our parents live less than a mile apart.
And to just sit with no agenda and just have connection and conversation and just. Just to kind of fly by the seat of Our pants. It's like this came up and we just took off and was like, yeah, let's go do that. And so it was just that, that was good. I, I knew that this was good for, for that reconnection with the pastors and other leaders. It was also just good because I knew that we're not coming back for Christmas. So it's, it was just a good connection to come up and see family.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: So everything about it was awesome. And so I just part of even coming off of that. And our topic for even today because as we journey with others, we find like our topic is sin and forgiveness. Treadmill is the title for today.
And we find that that treadmill of sin and forgiveness and sin and forgiveness, that treadmill that we can easily get on is very exhausting. And I just, it's coming from for sure, this book, the book, the Rest of the Gospel, chapter three. It's also comes from hearing a friend and pastor, retired pastor now, but a seasoned pastor, that, that shared his testimony, but shared specifically these words that I think just resonated with so many of us. I knew God loved me, but I didn't think that he liked me very much. Wow. I think everybody resonated with that because we've all been on that in that place. And I think that's the religious treadmill is it causes the ceaseless striving to earn God's favor. And it does feel like a treadmill because we can never really get there. But then on the flip side of it, the reality, when you come to the revelation and the reality that he loves me, he likes me, he's for me, like, it's just, it's so different.
Yeah.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: And we've been in that circles before. But to hear it, pastors say like, like the, the one that said, after reading the Cure, you know, in mid-70s, I still can't grasp that God loves me. And so here another, another pastor saying what you just said and it's like, yeah, this is. There's something fundamentally wrong here about, about everything that we do. You know, whether it's. Whether it's not understanding, whether it's performance based.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: Whether it's a system, whatever it is, is like, wow. But I'll just, I'm going to pause you right there because what's fascinating is a younger guy that was there who's saying, I didn't grow up in the church, I didn't grow up this way. I've never struggled with that. Now there's definitely other struggles. Right. But that's not one of them. And I just thought that was very interesting.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: It is. Well, look at the contrasting difference. And that's, that's really what, I don't know. I think that's what I'm always processing through with other people too, is why is it that we've, we've missed this incredible gift? It's a gift God has given us. This, it's, it's Romans 5:17. It's this gift of righteousness and this gift of abundant grace and we, we just, we can't receive. That's really the biggest part of it, I think. The people that, that grow up in a religious, I don't know, you grow up in that, that churchy environment, you actually, you maybe take it all for granted and you don't really understand it.
And so it just.
[00:05:44] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: I'm not sure what it is. It just causes us to really miss and to really fail to be able to receive what God is really giving to us. It's just something to process through for sure.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: Zach. Zach. I mean, my first thought is, what is it in us that creates this older brother syndrome where it's, it's self righteous or judgment or I deserve it or I've earned it.
And so then I'm, so then I'm. So then I viewed the father is not a loving father.
I'm trying to earn his favor by constantly being on that hamster wheel that I know that's the kind of the picture you like to use, right? And I don't know, man.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: I don't know either. I mean, I think that's, that's the journey. And I think it looks, it still looks different for every person as well because everybody's experience is a little bit different.
And so, because even just upbringing, you know, I just, I look at our own family dynamic and I just think my situation was different than your situation, which was different than some of our other cousins situations.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: But we all came from the same family in the same foundation.
And so it's just interesting to think about all of that. But I think that we have been conditioned within a church settings.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: We've been conditioned to see things, I think really just in the wrong way. And when it comes to sin in particular, he gets into that in this chapter and then I pulled up what I've shared many times before, I think at least once in the podcast, but just about sin. Yes, the words, the word sin, and how Romans 5 through 8 is really the true gospel message.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: He.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, and if you're reading the word Sin in these critical chapters on really understanding who you are in Christ, if you read the word sin as being your identity versus your outward actions. So if you're going to read it as a noun or a verb, and this is, this is what I was referring to and what I learned in class is that the word sin appears 41 times in those few chapters, Romans 5, 6, 7, and 8, but only one time is it considered to be a verb in action. And so if you are reading all those verses and all those words as sin, as being in action, as you're going to think, you're going to think, I can't do this, but the reality is, the truth that you are dead to sin is that that's in my identity. That's the noun, the makeup of who I was an Adam. This is who I was. But I'm no longer that man. That man has been crucified.
Right. That actually helps bring a lot of freedom, a lot of healing, a lot of victory. And the way that we translate all that, I think we've really been conditioned to see it all as now you're just a filthy sinner, and you need to do better. Right. And so that's. That's where we're coming from.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: Right. And it goes back to what is the true gospel? What. What is. What is the true gospel? And referencing. Referencing the rest of the gospel. The book, which, Which I think is. Is so helpful in understanding that there's more to the gospel than just forgiveness.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: And. And for me, from. For almost, you know, my whole adult life, thinking that's what it was, you know, so as a pastor, every Sunday was, if anyone has never received Christ as their savior, if anyone has never believed that Jesus died on the cross for their sins to be forgiven, you know, here's the gospel. And so every week I'm preaching a message of believe in Jesus and be forgiven.
Which is correct.
It is truth. It's just not the complete gospel. It's not the full gospel. So I learned how to get to heaven, I learned how to get to heaven, I learned how to be forgiven. But I have no concept of the power of the resurrection in my daily life. Now, is that, is that, Is that a good way to phrase it? You think?
[00:09:48] Speaker A: It's. It's very good. I have no reference point of how to live the life. And so therefore, I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon of anybody telling me, this is how you do it.
And, and there we are.
We're. We're. We're stuck in this in this religious cycle of thinking, I need to do this or that. Right. And.
But yeah, I mean, the quote that I pulled from our chapter here, chapter three of the rest of the gospel, is that one half of the gospel isn't enough. And there are a few things, you know, like, just like what you said, there is more to the gospel than just forgiveness.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: And I would say this, like, there is more. And it's a revelation that only for me came by just praying, God, would you open my eyes to this. And I think that is true for. For all believers. So, like, if you're wondering what this is, it's. It's not come to us and we have the answers for you. It's ask God.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: He's the one that, that opens your eyes and causes you to see this.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: But I just recognize this because I think that even saying some of these things and just in the circles that I'm in now and the connection to different pastors, I'm just thinking of the pastor from Orlando. Yeah, I met him last year.
And I. I was sharing because at that very time when I met him, even I was at a stage of just learning some of the these things. And I share with them. Yeah, just about. Like, if you share that there is more to the gospel, you're kind of labeled like a false teacher or a heretic. And he's like, yep. Like, all these guys is like, oh, I've been through there. I've been. I've heard that I've been labeled that I've been told. That's the reality of, like, once you step into this realm of really understanding the. The true gospel message, whereas True Face even calls it the original gospel, because that's what is. Yeah, it's the original good news. It doesn't sit well with the religious people that think of it only in. And your sins are forgiven. And that's all you need to know. Like, there actually is more to it.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Well, sure. And so what happens is that I live a defeated life. I believe that my circumstances are greater than God. And so it's like, I just can't wait to get to heaven. So it's just this wait to get to heaven. Can't wait to get to heaven. And so I am. And if you want to use this term, I'm empty. So I'm just empty, lifeless. I'm empty without understanding. You know, it's like John 14:6, if you want. Here's something very simple I think people can understand. Jesus says, I'm the way and the Truth. Oh, yeah. He's the only way. Oh, yeah, he's the truth. And that third thing, I'm the life.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: What does that mean?
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Okay, well, I'm going, right? So I'm going to heaven someday. So it's completely void of my daily life. And so, so what does that look like? Christ's life? Right. What does that look like? Christ's life? And, and, and I had said I wanted to share a little bit more. Is so on my way to, to get to Michigan. It's kind of like, okay, well, if Christ is my life, then I'm at rest with what he wants as opposed to what I want. And so if, so if I get stuck and I don't make the plane or I'm driving up and I'll realize that I'm 30 minutes later than I thought and I gotta catch his flight. And then, and then the flight ends up being delayed 45 minutes. And so then I'm thinking I'm gonna miss the connecting flight. So all that, all that angst inside me starts rising up and I just have to, what recenter my mind on Christ in me. That I'm not mission critical. That if Zach and Scott are there, they're fully capable without me. That, that in fact, guess what? If all three of us weren't there, God's fully capable of ministering without us.
So just surrendering that and everything worked out great. Everything worked out great. But just in the middle of it, experiencing that piece.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: That's one example of how, what this looks like.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: He didn't, he, he didn't plow the roads for me. He didn't supernaturally place me in Charlottesville and then the New York, the Grand Rapids. But he just calmed me down, calmed me inside. Yeah.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: And wow.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: I was, I was able to experience the fruit of trust. And so that's, that's one thing I would say as an example.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so true. It's so good.
I, I, I'm just reminded out of, out of the book. There is, there is this, this promise from God of abundant life.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: And what we end up with oftentimes is especially if we only see the cross, as you know, the forgiveness of our sins. If that's all we see, it does become very, very much not this abundant life. It actually is very lifeless because we get on this treadmill of saying, what does it look like to live this life? And so that was a perfect example of what you just laid out. And I love how he lays this out, that we conclude that there has to be this event that takes place in order to experience this abundant life. And. And there is an event, and the event is. This is what he's really clarifying, that we must die. And so modern thought, my teaching on this in the past would have always been, I die daily. I die to myself. I deny myself.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: That's what I would have taught. And that's what he's basically saying, too. It's what he probably would have taught when he's stepping into a new thing. This is. I really love this. He says, yes, you do have to die. But the real issue. This is the question that he poses to people that question this. The real issue is, when did you die? And he comes to this revelation for him.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: Which I think was also a revelation for us to recognize that we were crucified with Christ and we are no longer alive, that that old man is dead. We have this newness of life, and that's the life. That's the you that is present in the circumstance. On your travels to Michigan.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: You step into this. I'm getting a little anxious. I'm getting frustrated. I'm. Maybe I'm mad at myself because of this or that. And. And it's. All of a sudden, you can just. Just look at the reality of, no, this is who I am in Christ.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: And if everything falls apart, it's actually okay.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: Because none of it hinges on me. And so I love how he's. He's basically saying that the illustration really changes. It's like the question. I've. I've heard this from Frank Friedman. He takes this little quiz, and the first question on the quiz is, who died on the cross? And most believers are going to say, well, Jesus died on the cross.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: And it's in that great opportunity to take people to Galatians 2:20 and say, well, but I have been crucified with Christ. Who is the eye in there?
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: And it's. It's just so crucial to recognize and understand that. Because the truth is we are dead to that sin. That sin no longer has mastery over us. Because Romans 6, 6, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him. And. And Romans 6 is so crucial to understanding these things.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Yeah, sure is.
[00:16:51] Speaker A: And. And putting the source of our life into the right place. Because if. If it is all about sin and sin management on my part, then I'm just on this treadmill, and every time I fail, I'm running to God for forgiveness so that I can clean up my act and be Better when instead there's this reality of I can actually rest in who I am, in him, trust this truth that I have been crucified with Christ, that sin no longer has mastery over me and it really changes everything.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: In every aspect of life.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Right. So if I don't understand that, then, so I'm forgiven.
And now it's all up to me.
Right. And so he talks about that. So, so there's that performance mentality of totally earning it. And so then we, so then we take that to his love and say, well, I have to earn his love or I have to prove that I'm worthy of his love or. Yeah, it's all up to me.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Well, on a feelings level, when we sin, we feel like we have broken that fellowship with God. We feel like it, it hasn't changed. Yeah, we're still, we're still his children.
And so that's why that, that feelings wheel I have is here, but it's kind of stuck behind stuff. But that feelings wheel is important, you know, to like, let's identify, okay, how do you feel? But then leading ourselves and others into, okay, this is how you feel, but look at the truth.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Let's just focus on the truth for a little bit. And so that's what I just really love. Even about the, a little bit of the coaching that took place with Scott at the retreat. Yeah, let's just, let's, let's ask questions. Let's ask the right questions, right? Not, not the I'm gonna fix you type of questions, but the, let's allow God to really speak through these, you know, open ended questions that will help you to receive from God. And so that's just so important. He calls it the double cross in here for, for a good reason. Like the first side is the blood. The blood side he calls it, that's where Christ died for us. That's very much true. So we don't want to minimize this at all. It's very much true. You know, he shed his blood for the forgiveness of our sins. It's, that's crucial. The second side is just as important though, that we are united with him on the cross, participating in his death, burial and resurrection. And I think that our biggest problem in the, in the religious realm really is that we don't receive. We're not very good at receiving. We can't. Like I've heard it from so many people, Christians and non Christians alike. In reality, I'm too, I'm too wicked. I'm too bad, I don't deserve that salvation from a lost person or like, I don't know, God can't possibly love me. I've done too much. And so we. We can't receive his love and his grace. And so that leaves us really on that treadmill of, like you said, trying to do it on our own, trying to shape up on our own, when in reality, man, we're already new.
Wow, that's a very beautiful picture.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Got, you know, the humility, right? Humility attracts grace. Pride says I don't need. I don't need this gift.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Pride says.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: Pride says I don't need you. You know, self reliance and self sufficiency and all of that is. Is Right.
Got like, that opposes. Like God's opposed to it.
[00:20:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:09] Speaker B: Wow, that's a strong. Go ahead. It's. It is.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: No, I'm just thinking of that just because pride isn't just what you think of a prideful person.
I was. I was a very prideful person, but it didn't exhibit itself as pride in the outward way. It was like. It was like false pride. It was in what I was trying to be humble, you know, or my bashfulness or my fear, my. And it kept me.
It's just interesting. There's. There's so much pride that actually keeps us from really receiving this incredible gift.
And isn't it weird? Like, it's kind of. It's kind of Western world mentality. It's like, if you buy me a gift, I feel like I have to buy you a gift in return. And that's not. Not receiving a gift very well. And it's funny going into the Christmas holiday right now too, right. With gifts and we think that we have to return. So who's going to buy me a gift? Who do I need to buy a gift for? That's always our mentality about it. Instead of how about we just love one another. Right. And as your heart longs to just love on somebody, just love on them. And if somebody's loving on you, just. Just receive their love instead of thinking that we have to. To play that game. So it is really. It's revelation, but it comes by revelation. So I think it's always. That's what I always just. I go back to that. Ask. Let's just ask God.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that. That's a great place to start, isn't it?
[00:21:37] Speaker A: Right?
[00:21:39] Speaker B: It's the last place. Yeah.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: The last place. Out of desperation. It's like.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: And that's when life begins. That's when our life begins.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Truly brings us to the.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, that's so true. So true. So I think that kind of wraps up our time together. I'm so grateful, Carl, to be able to talk life with you every week. And we're going to enter into here Christmas next week, I think, and then the new year. And I just look forward to what God has in store for this next year. So we'll see what the next two weeks bring as the holiday schedules come. But praise God for this reality of the cross, bringing us not just forgiveness of sins that's crucial, but also bringing us this newness of life. Praise God.
