Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to let's Talk Life live and in person. Carl and I, Zach, we're here in Venice, Florida.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Yes. I didn't change my shirt.
[00:00:10] Speaker A: I should have taken my outer one off. Why am I wearing two down here in Florida? But we're hitting the beach after this, so if you're in Venice and want to join us two weeks later, you are, because this isn't going out for a while.
Happy Thanksgiving. This is the day before Thanksgiving.
We haven't really talked about Thanksgiving at all.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Yeah. You know why I think we're gonna be, as every good podcast will do, is a year in review that we can be very thankful for things later.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So today we already recorded one episode. This is our take two. But you're gonna see it two weeks apart. And so that's just the life of podcasting. And Carl's got some things to share and I guess I'll turn it over to you and.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll go from there, you know, and I've written about it briefly, but some people might have heard this story. But Jennifer likes to live minimally. And so every three months it's like, okay, what do we get rid of? And she loves Ina's accent about evicting.
I came across this book by David Platt and said my hand up reference in a second and I was gonna donate it. It's, you know, a couple years old and I hadn't really read it, so I was like, oh, I'll get rid of it. And then I just happened to turn to this exact page that just blew me away. And I've been sharing it for. For a few days now with different people. But. But he talks about this time in his life after he wrote the Radical. So David Platt is. He was, He's. He's at McLean Bible Church in Northern Virginia, Arlington, Virginia, right outside of D.C. they have five or six plants. He's written a, you know, best selling book. He was on tours, you know, I've heard him speak. Whereas, like, man, I wish I could speak like that. You know, just that a great order, you know, biblical teacher. It's like, oh, I wish I could be like him. And he's, you know, so popular. And so he talked about that and that, you know, churches were calling him. And I'll just, I'll read this to you first. The book's titled Don't Hold Back, Leaving behind the subtitle, Leaving behind the American Gospel to Follow Jesus Fully. Now his first book, Radical, Somehow Living Radical for Jesus. I think that must be the Theme Bestselling book. Leaving the American Gospel Behind Bargain books. Probably one year after he wrote it.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: So it just tells you anything about anything. Leaving the American Gospel behind bargain books. Something else. Bestselling. Right. As an author says, I don't know why, if some books sell, some don't, but I just thought that was interesting. So it's a time after he wrote this book and every church wants him to come speak and he's going around and bestselling author, everyone. And he was like, you know, the church is planting in D.C. everything's going great on the outside. He says, but during this long season, my time alone with God was non existent. I would pray in a worship service I was leading, but I would hardly ever meet with God alone. I studied the Bible and this is the quote that really got me. I studied the Bible in order to preach it, but almost never. Just to know God.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. You know that it takes me back to the core verse that really brought me into all this because that's the prayer guy. Would you give me a spirit of wisdom and revelation that I may know. Know you? And that's how I say it. I wasn't praying that prayer so that I could be a better preacher or a better musician or a better leader. I was praying in order that I would know because that's Paul's prayer for the church. And so that became my personalized prayer for my life and for my ministry.
It radically changed everything.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And for me, it was March 27, 2019, when I said, God, I'm done running. Yeah, like I'm done running. I want to give you Jennifer, I'm going to give you the boys. I want to give you this church. I. I just want you, Jesus.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Like that was the beginning of new life, was that point. So this is what he says. He says that scares me. I could be successful in the eyes of the church in Christian culture without any real desire for Christ. Jesus had become a means to an end. By using Jesus, I could build myself an exciting church, a popular ministry, and a good name for myself. I was using God to get what I wanted without actually wanting God.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: That's positive flesh.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: That's positive.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Listen, last week that we talked about in our last episode, 10 minutes ago for us, seven days ago for you. It's so true. That's it, man. Like when I came to that recognition and I thought it was such a good thing for ministry to be my life, but that was, that was all flesh. And I've since come to recognize that with the actually the complete opposite. My life, I learned this from you. My life is the ministry. That, that's Wayne Jacobson writing. Wherever I am, that's where the ministry is. It changes everything.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: So he says, how sick is that? Right? How sick is that? And I'm just wondering, you know, pastors who are listening, ministry leaders who are listening, find ourselves in that position where I'm saying I'm trying to build my own kingdom. I mean just every denomination, right? Just ah. Just so you know, I think, I think that's where Wayne in his books are. No church anymore. So accurate of like this is, this is like. It's like sad. It's like with. So with God's eyes, this is sad, right? Sad of we're missing what he really wants, which is him. So I said this. God's grace brought him to a point of repentance. He didn't say what happened, but you can imagine different things could have happened.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: And he.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: And he says this. If we're going to experience love for God that is greater than any other love, we don't need to try harder. We actually need new hearts. We need fundamental transformation at the for who we are. We need God in his grace to open our eyes in a fresh way. Wow. Or maybe for the first time to see how indescribably wonderful and absolutely desirable he is. To recognize how much he loves us, how much he loves being with us and how lovely he is to be with And I'm gonna stop right there. We just had this conversation. It's probably off air, but just about how we appreciate other authors that are saying very similar things or teaching similar things and maybe no connection. So it really is the Holy Spirit, right? The Holy Spirit inside.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: That's bring to the same conclusions without the same, you know, right path or journey, whatever.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I always describe it as appreciating people that are smart enough to get this. I wasn't smart enough to get it on my own.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: I needed.
Yeah, I know.
Well, I mean not the smart budget tools for Jesus. So then he says this. I look back. So this is what's so great about this, this chapter. As I look back on those days, everything seems reversed in the present recent days. So God brought him to a place of repentance, place of intimacy, where he's just experiencing Jesus in a real way and he loves it. He's so excited.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Right?
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Recent days have resulted in greater challenges, more criticism, less popularity and a lot of mudsling on my reputation. This season has been one of the most difficult Seasons of my life. But I can honestly say that by God's grace, I'm experiencing deeper intimacy with him than ever before. And you know what I found? He is better. He is better. He says, if I know God more, I love God more. I'm enjoying closer communion with God, I guess, if God is the goal. And right now, what's happening in my life, these actually are the great days, right. Not two years ago or three years ago or 10 years ago when I was writing books and everyone loved me and there was no.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: He says, the good news is God is the goal. God is the end of the gospel. He's the one we need more than anything else in this world. No matter how good the. The gift is. I'm gonna stop any reaction to that, what I just read.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: It's a lot to soak in. I don't know. I'm processing still. I'm a slow process.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: That's why I got the book in front of.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: That's right. It's just so true. And. And I'm just still looking at this, the words that are on the screen. Because it does create such conflict and frustration. Yeah.
To. To be pursuing what we think is what we really want or need. And. And I go back to. I think you brought this verse to my attention at one point. I don't remember where it's at in the Book of John, but you search the Scriptures because you think that in them you'll find life. But Jesus is saying, but you don't come to me. And isn't it true that so much of modern church or American church or American ministry models are all built on the very thing that's actually keeping us from actually just that relational aspect of knowing who I am in Christ and trusting. Living out of trust.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Right. Living out of trust. Because.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: Because if I'm living out of the.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: Trust of the Father, then no matter what's going on around me, people are saying about me or whatever's happening in my life, the circumstances of my life, because this is. This is the American Gospel. American gospel says, oh, you're struggling with xyz.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Come to Jesus and all those things will be fixed.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: Fixed is the word Y. And that's. That's something you grab on to. Give me that next book. Give me that next message. That's gonna fix me.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: Right? So. So then what? I need to come back next Sunday.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: And hear the guy say it again.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Or something new. So. So here's the American gospel, right? Come to God and get this social position, political Power, finances, personal comfort. You know, this is big where I live in Central va. You. You get free pass out of hell.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Come to God and you're going to heaven now. And so here's what's so great, right? This is the biblical gospel. Come to God and get God. Yes, come to God and get God. Not what he gives you. Not a gift, but you get him.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: And which is what Wayne talks about. He loves me.
[00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: How the father's always wanted the relationship, and we just want the gifts. We just want what he has for us instead of actually wanting him. Intimacy. Like David said in Psalms 1:7. Hey, hey, God, I'd rather spend one day with you than anything else anywhere else. I just want you.
And so then this is it, right? So. So to behold him, to speak with him, to rest in him alone. Rest in God himself. And all of a sudden, the challenges in our moments.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: Think about this.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Oh, this is so beautiful. The challenges in our moments can be a surprising instrument in the hands of a sovereign God who loves us so much, he will wean us off lesser things so. So we can experience the fullness of life in him. So he'll take away those crutches, remove those crutches of marriage or kids or a church, or he'll take those all the way. So it's just you and him. Not like Joe. He can give it all back. Maybe he won't. I know there's a lot of pastors who want the same story as me. Right. Their wife left and want nothing to do with it. Right. And yet I even see what God's doing in those relationships where he's restoring God. You're using all things right to bring me to a place of total dependence right on you. Then this is how he finishes. And this is so beautiful. This is how he finishes it by saying, you know what, God? You're better. You're better than family and friends. You're better than personal comfort. You're better than man's applause. You're better than just more possessions. You're better than social status or political power, economic prosperity.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Oh, man.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: And then he says this. All who believe that God is this good will find ultimate satisfaction. And whether we have a lot of things or we have nothing, Paul says in Philippians 4. He just said, think about Philippians. Philippians is a great case because Paul just says, I had all these things, positive flesh. I had all these things. I consider them right for just knowing you, Jesus. And at the end, I've learned it, I've experienced it. The secret of content.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: I'm at rest, which is your. Yeah, I want to share. It's boom. It's blown me away. I've been sharing with different pastors.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: Because I know we fall into this. I study the Bible because I got to preach. I said the Bible.
I. I have these gifts. I use these gifts, but I don't actually want him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: It's so good coming off that positive, negative flesh thing, too, because what. This is why I appreciate it. I mentioned this last week, that the swing. Because this is the reality. This is all in the flesh. And when sex, drugs, neurocon roll don't work, I go, I need to plug in. I need to get closer to God. I need to pray more. I need to do whatever I think it might take to get closer. But then that doesn't work either. And I'm left exhausted. And that's where the swing continues to go. Well, back to pornography or back to drinking. Back to just whatever escapism it might be. And it might not even be bad things. It might just be I'm going to go out with my fishing pole and go fishing. I'm just going to get away. And then eventually it's like, man, I'm really lonely doing this.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: And so it's like.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Like, I better get back into. And it might just look a little different. And here's the swing that we find ourselves in. And God all the time is just saying, listen, this is. This is who you are. You're a new creation. So once I came to understand that reality, then I could live at rest. And it really does change your whole perspective on everything. So I love that.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: It's so good. That's the book that you picked up or that you just had?
[00:13:02] Speaker B: The book I have, I was getting ready to get rid of.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: And. And I just.
The.
Again, just the contrast between a bargain book that's in the trash, leaving the American Gospel behind, and a bestselling book, Brad Bull, which got him everywhere.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: And. And I love how I love. In his story. And we're all on our own journey. Right. We all have different things going. I love how God used that to bring him to a place where just him and us, I really understood.
I love that.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: I love you. You're coming to my house tonight. You'll see all of my books. And I have. I don't really have them categorized very well, but I have, like, my favorites, and I have, like, this. This list of them that's like, boy, these were My favorites. But I don't know.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: And I'm like, I don't want to necessarily get rid of them yet. I want to understand what's the difference. And that's all part of the journey. And that's all stuff I'd love to even be able to talk about as we go, because that's part of my journey, too. But just to be able to see things differently, to have the mind of Christ.
And even just that verse alone, I always taught it as. Put it on. The mind of Christ, strive for. And then I go to the Scripture and it says, but you have the mind of Christ. I'm like, wait a minute. I've been teaching that all. And it changes everything just by reading the verse properly.
Because now I'm. I'm living from not for which we've talked about so many different times. And that really changes how I live my life, with my family, with ministry, with everything. It's. I'm not trying to strive and to draw closer to God. He's the closest I'll ever get. I'm already. I'm already in union. How can I get any closer? And so it's such a great place to just rest. And I love resting. That's why the rest is like my. My emphasis right now and maybe will be more so as I step forward. Because two places that I've shared, I'm at rest with a group of people. Caught more attention because so many other people were like, I want.
How did you get there? Why? What? How? Define that for me. And it's like, well, I can't take you through these steps to get there.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: I'm just like, with me four years ago, like, I couldn't just say, hey, Zach, this is what you got to do. You this. You do this.
[00:15:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: You get where. No. Right.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: If it was that easy, then everybody would do it. And we'd all be. If it was some sort of system that you just need to follow. But trusting. That's probably been one of the main things that we've talked about. Trusting God is difficult. It's not easy. It takes so much more faith to trust him than anything else. It's a lot easier. It's a lot easier in our minds anyways to. To do. To get busy. I'm just going to do these things. But the end result, it's not. So the end result of trusting God is so much better. I don't know. I think we're.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, let's talk about one more thing.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Today's your birthday. I'm not gonna sing to you. I just want to say I'm thankful for your lives.
[00:16:09] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: A lot of people in my.
My connections that say, man, I love listening to you and your cousin. Yeah, that's awesome. So to all the listeners, it's Zach's birthday. Thankful for him. Thankful for kind of doing it.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: And we're going to the beach the week of Thanksgiving.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Sorry.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: So much to be thankful for. Thank you for that, Carl. Appreciate it. I'm not getting any younger. It's weird, but that's us once again talking life. Thank you for listening.
