Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Fear and trembling. I don't think this is saying that we should be afraid of God in any way whatsoever. I think it is completely awe and reverence. And this is the reality. When I know who I am.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: And I can trust that I'm righteous and that I am a temple of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit can't be in me if I'm not righteous and holy.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: The result of me knowing these things is respect, this overflow of awe and reverence. And it's. It's just so amazing how. How natural it actually is. And. And so the. The focus was always, I'm trying to do these things, and now it's like I can actually sit back and rest in these things. And the outcome of that.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Is this awe and this reverence.
It's night and day difference. Hello, fellow travelers. We are so happy to have you join us and we welcome you to another episode of let's Talk Life. There are so many promises of God life. Abundant life is one of them. And we get to talk that life here every single week on this podcast. I've been a believer since I was nine years old. That was third grade for me. And I.
I received Abundant Life, but I didn't know that until about two, two and a half years ago.
So here we are, episode 60. How you doing, Carl?
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Good morning, Zach. It is. It is a pleasure to always be with you and talk life with you and hear. Hear what? God's. What you've been percolating in your mind and what's been marinating and.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: And just seeing. Just seeing God do what he does.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Right.
For sure. It's so good. So excited about, I don't know, every day. Monday's not a drudgery, right. It's like, this is a Monday for us. You're going to be listening to this. Maybe not. Not on a Monday, but yeah, it's my. It's my day in the office. And that's what we're just talking about off camera is just has been instilling that maybe in me, just bringing that to me, just saying just rest in me. Just simplify. And it's been. It's been a beautiful journey. Something that we've decided we'll probably talk further about in another podcast. But yeah, today, the Way of Holiness.
So I'm not even sure how to start.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: Well, I'm going to start with this. I'm going to start and say the Way of Holiness. How did you used to take that phrase?
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Man.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Man.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Work really hard. I Need to clean up. I need to do better.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: Afraid of condemnation.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Punishment. What, what, what, what other way, man?
[00:02:48] Speaker A: Well, I mean, just a lot of fear.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Of what other. Of what other people thought, what God was gonna do. When was that lightning bolt gonna come? All of it.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. Living in the same way, striving harder. Right. To.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Whatever that looks like. Build a bigger church, build a bigger ministry. What we think is gonna make God happy. Proud. Proud of us or, or the idea that somehow he's. He pretty lucky that I'm on his team. You know, I'm doing a lot for him.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, totally.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: But yeah, a lot of fear. A lot of. A lot of. Afraid of punishment.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. That's, that's our perspective about God. And that's. That's what brings me back to the promises of God. I mean, I think that so many people miss. So many believers really miss these, these promises. They spend their whole life, I think, chasing after them, wanting them.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: Not realizing that the reality is it's already a promise that you have in.
To be at rest, to have life, abundant life. Specifically to be free, to have this freedom which brings such joy and such peace. These are all promises.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: And it's mind boggling to think, why do so many people miss these things? And that's really how Frank. I'm pulling that list of promises. I'm pulling out a Frank Friedman book, Stunned by Grace. And he starts off the book by saying, go to any church or just think about community, maybe that you're involved in yourself. How many people going to church regularly have a joy, have this life, have this abundance in them.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: And he's like, most people just don't. What. Why are we missing this? And that's, that's a good question to, to really ponder and to chew on.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: So I like what you said. Freedom at rest. And so the way of holiness that we want to talk about today stems from.
As opposed to four or two. Like, like totally from what's been received. Not four or two. What we're trying to.
I don't think we could say that enough. I really don't. For people just listening for the first time or just checking this or whatever. I would love for you to, to dive into what you were. What's been.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Well, I mean, so we're getting ready to do a. A pastor's retreat next week and then again five weeks later.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Down here in Florida. So I'm digging into. We. We go through wild at heart stuff. And so I pulled this up.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: I. I dug for it and in the process of digging for it, I found all my John Eldridge books that I haven't read. I haven't read a single one of them, to be honest with you. I started wild that hard a long time ago. I've gone through more of it than I have in the last year. But I found this one that I had and I've never even opened it. The utter relief of holiness. That's where I'm getting some of this. And I just love how he starts off the whole thing. And I'll just kind of sum it up. I won't, won't read a lot of it, but there's this illustration of snowboarding and surfing and I totally just relate because I was in college when I first strapped on a snowboard to my feet and. And it was a rough day. It's a lot of crashing and smashing and I mean, I was young and I was, you know, in shape and I was just beat up, man. It just exhausted me. The next couple of days I was just hobbling around. It was. My body was so sore.
So. So I totally get where he's coming from because after over the years of learning to really snowboard and then I switched into skiing and there is like this. I love the way he puts it. He says you have to lean into it. Like basically it's this all in approach of. In order to actually get it with snowboarding, you have to just lean into the mountain, just lean down the hill, the snow, do what it's going to do for you. Let the board glide over the snow. And that's a frightening approach.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: That, that. That sounds terrifying.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
And so it's like, if you're fighting against that gravity, though, it's going to wear you out. It's just going to wear your body out mentally, physically, every aspect of it. And so I just love how he, he really laid that out there. And then he moved into surfing.
Wow. As well that he's got friends that are big into surfing and it's. And it's the same idea. And so this. I'll just say I'll read it the way that he says it. If you fight that, lean down the hill or on the wave, if you fight that, you end up constantly battling gravity and balance and the downward pull of things. And I think ultimately that's kind of where we were at in this step into like holiness. Right. That was our mentality, was I need to work harder for it. I need to do better. And the end Result is exhaustion.
It's just, I don't know, that's what create striving creates is that frustration in that conflict. And I think that pretty much is the makeup of most believers lives. So I don't know what you think about all that, Carl, but he's, what he's getting to is holiness is the same way.
It's, it's just lean in to this reality, lean into this truth, trust this truth. Ultimately that's the language that we all always go back to.
Trust this, lean into it. Know that this is a reality for you.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: And when you can do that, you're no longer trying to fight against the gravity. Right.
You're actually just resting in who you actually truly are.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's good because the snowboarding, surfing thing, it's. I'm a deer in the headlights on that because I don't snowboard and I don't serve and both are terrifying. But, but, but I know that I, that I, that I, I couldn't ski the one time I went. And I'll never go again the one time I. Because I was fighting against it. That, so I was fighting against everything that everyone was saying, just do this, just do this. Well, I couldn't do it. I just, My mind, I couldn't get my mind and body to work together to cooperate or to lean into.
And so this is the same thing about holiness. Right. So I'm fighting against, because I don't actually believe I'm holy, that I believe that my behavior or my actions have somehow disqualified me from the righteousness of Christ. Which is crazy because my behavior and actions never could qualify me in the first place.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Right. Wow. So good.
That's so true.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: I love how he says you don't create. So going to the surfing theme, right? You don't create the wave. That's exactly what you're saying. You don't create the wave. The power is beyond you. And once it has you, your part is to cooperate.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: That's, that's the word that he uses. And I've heard that many times from other friends, from other people too. That's so good. Holiness works in the same way. If we think we have to paddle enough to create this entire experience to be able to surf, we're going to end up frustrated, we're going to be exhausted in the striving.
So that's where I go to Frank's book and he just says, will you dare to believe what God says about you?
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Will you dare to believe this is a reality?
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: And to step into that. And so going back to even. Why is there such a struggle? So many people miss these promises. I mean, ultimately I think it's because it's really difficult to receive. It's really difficult to trust.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: And just, just think about those two words together. I mean, I think they go together. Doesn't it take trust to receive?
[00:10:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: Like if I don't trust you, I'm not going to receive from you.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: Right, Right.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: So if I'm not trusting God, I'm not going to receive. If you're not trusting, you're not receiving. And that's a crucial point to understand.
So using John Eldridge phrase, he says, Jesus is saying, let me be the wave. Trust me.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: And I just, I really love that. Let me be the wave.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: I love what you're saying here. And it kind of, it kind of gives the idea that when we say we believe, we're actually not believing.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: And so I don't, I don't actually believe that. And so the opposite of that is, it's up to me. So self reliance and self sufficiency. I actually don't even need God. Right.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Because.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: Because I know what to do, I know what to think, I know what to say. And so it's mess. Like what just a disaster of a life that is self reliant, self sufficient, and it can work for a little bit.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Quote, work. But Jesus is saying. Jesus is saying, trust me. Like, I love that. And I love that analogy. I'm the wave. Jesus is the wave.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. So what are we leaning into? Are we trusting our own ability to create the wave and to be, to create the whole experience? Or are we trusting the One who is, you know, the way, and he is the wave and he's the one that, that gives us all these promises.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Let's trust. Let's trust in the finished work of Christ.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Because it is just that, it's finished.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: So. Good.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: So receive what God says about you.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, man.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: So I love it.
John takes us to Philippians chapter two, when he's saying Jesus is saying let me be the wave.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Philippians chapter two.
I'm finding it here myself to actually read that, but I, I think that I've never fully grasped and understood this verse. It was just always confusing to me. Or it goes along the lines of. I don't even know what to call it, but I have a. I'm not doing a very good job making a list, but I have a list. And this would be one of Them of verses that I've probably like. I would underline the first part that made me just jump on this bandwagon of striving, and I would miss the real context of what's being stated. And this is one of those verses for sure. So it's verses 12 and 13, I believe so, yeah. I mean, the last part of 12 says, to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. That. That would have been a verse that I would have underlined, and I wouldn't have even underlined the next verse which says, it is God who is at work in you. It is God, and so let him be the wave.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: So you're saying here's another verse that we've taken out of Conte text and we've manipulated or we've been manipulated to. To act a certain way, behave a certain way, and we totally miss the next phrase.
Yeah, me too. Me too.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Like, isn't that how you see it as well?
[00:13:39] Speaker B: 100. 100. Like, even right now, reading verse 13, it just jumps at me. I mean, it just. It just pops. It is God who works in you. Right? I mean. I mean, a similar passage of where Paul says, I am convinced that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion completely. So where am I? I mean, Dan Stone uses the word willing. John Elvidge uses the word cooperate. I am willing to cooperate. Like, I'm willing, and I will cooperate. Like, yes, Jesus, yes.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: Right, Right. So how do we get to the point of trusting these truths? And even that, for me is just a. A crazy thing to process because I thought that it was. It was my job to convince people and to challenge them into these truths. And the reality is now that I'm understanding that we need to trust these truths, the challenge to go out and to do or to understand these things doesn't help you to trust them. It actually leaves you condemned. Because I can't do it. I'm failing at it. Every week. You're giving me this challenge, and I'm going out to do this, and I'm failing at it, and I'm coming back next week being like, I'm a failure. I didn't. I didn't live up to last week's message. Now you're going to challenge me with more. And so it's. It's such an interesting concept when I. When I'm processing through what I used to be the one that was sending out the challenge. And it was. So. It was frivolous. It was stupid. I wasn't actually equipping. The saints. I was encouraging them. That's all I can.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: Well, we thought. We thought we were right. We thought we were right.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. So, yeah, it's just really interesting because.
Let's just go back to the end of verse 12. What does it mean to work out your salvation?
[00:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah, whatever this means. It's not me striving harder on my own. There's. It's not self reliance. It's not self sufficiency. It's not right. Because. Because of 13. I mean, because of what he says next.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Well, working out. We. We have to understand that working out is not working for.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: Like there's a huge difference. So we are working out of. Or better.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Living out of.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Living out of. Yeah.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Who we are in Christ.
And so then you get to these other words that are. That are equally as confusing because they've been so confused in the way they've been taught. Fear and trembling. I don't think this is saying that we should be afraid of God in any way whatsoever. I think it is completely awe and reverence. And this is the reality. When I know who I am.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: And I can trust that I'm righteous and that I am a temple of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit can't be in me if I'm not righteous and holy.
The result of me knowing these things is respect, this overflow of awe and reverence. And it's just so amazing how natural it actually is. And so that the focus was always, I'm trying to do these things, and now it's like I can actually sit back and rest in these things. And the outcome of that.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:51] Speaker A: Is this awe and this reverence.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: It's night and day difference.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: And, and I would say this. I mean, this came to me just now, so this could be from God. It could be from me. But I look at how he starts this section on humility, and it's just fear and trembling. All respect. There's a humility in that. And, and man, Zach, I mean, I could just the. The frustration inside me of, of pastors and ministry leaders that, you know, elders and deacons and board members have a phrase with a pride that, that filled with such pride where it is impacting. I mean, pride always impacts it. But, but how we in the church are like, okay with these things. Like, like we promote it. Like we, we. These are the, These are the great speakers. They're the ones that go around the US or they're the ones that we call pastors, or they're the ones that call the shots in the church. And it, and it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. The only. I mean, if God gave me what I deserved, it'd be hell. It'd be damnation if I got what I really deserved. If I got, if Carl got what he really deserved. And so I look at the first part of this as being so beautiful of the example of Christ.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: And so, so I could work out my salvation with a lot of pride.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: Because look at me.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: I'm saved. You know, you're, you're going to hell. I'm great. I'm better than you. I have this gift.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: And it's like, no, no, no, no. It's, this is all from God, and he's the one that's in you, and he's working both to. Willing to work for, for his good pleasure.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
And, yeah.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: And I just think that, I mean, I'll stop right there, see what you think of that.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Or. Oh, I mean, it's so true. I mean, it's the American dream mentality. It's the American spirit.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: You know, it's like we fight so hard and we rejoice, and we should, you know, Fourth of July comes, we should rejoice in our independence. Right. But when it comes to our relationship with God, that's not what we're rejoicing in. We're actually rejoicing in the fact that, that I can depend on a trustworthy and faithful God. And it's all about dependence on Him. It's not about independence. And we've been trying to go about it in our own way for, for far too long, and it's simply not working right. And I, I, I just find this is a tinge of my story to understand that that prayer that I was praying out of Ephesians, a prayer that gripped me and changed everything for me. The point is, I pray that haphazardly.
And, and this is a crucial point because it is the point that it's, it's not a matter of what I'm doing for God. It's a matter of recognizing the gift of righteousness and grace and receiving.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: So it's not this diligence of me praying that got caught God's attention. That's how I used to always think. It's like, boy, I wish I could be a man of prayer like that. Like that man.
And it's like, no, it's not about the diligence of me praying that catches God's attention. It's Actually, this prayer to know God, right. It was an end of me sort of prayer of trusting. And I prayed it haphazardly, but it gripped my heart to be able to see the gift and to see the grace and to recognize what I have. And I think it just changes everything.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Wait, wait, so you're saying that God is gentle and lowly and is so tender to even our own confusion or misunderstanding of Him?
[00:20:30] Speaker A: So patient. So patient. Wow. Imagine if he wasn't. I mean, goodness, it's wild that we think that he isn't.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Man. First of all, I appreciate your honesty of looking back and saying, man, this is even like God's answering my prayer. Even though I was confused and maybe the intentions were different or this was haphazard.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Because I was looking for maybe something over here, but God was actually trying to do something over here in my heart.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Right.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that is. That is ultimately the message. That is the point is that it's not about what I'm doing for God. It's that I'm coming to know who I am in him, and then I can live from that. That place of identity and right and love and grace, and it's just.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: It's.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: It's a beautiful place to be. So I think that kind of wraps up our time. Unless you have something to conclude on Carl. I think that was a good. Good topic to discuss, and we're gonna just keep at it. Talking life next week. I don't know. I think our Monday looks normal. No, it doesn't. I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be flying out early next week. Monday I'll be up there in Virginia. So we don't know what next week will bring. That's right.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: But God does.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: But God does. And we trust him. So thanks for joining us here on let's Talk Life.
