Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to let's Talk Life.
We're so glad to be together week after week discussing what it means to live with Christ in me. He's our hope, he's our certainty that we can trust in and believe. He's the way Jesus is the way. He's the truth and he's the life.
And so interesting to me that him as the life has really been the missing element in my life.
Not missing, as though he wasn't there.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: But just. I didn't know.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Unaware, right?
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's just interesting stuff to talk about, but union with Christ. Here's what we're kind of digging into today a little bit is the passive myth.
Like, there is this. This idea that in this new covenant or this grace walk, this reality of God's goodness and grace to us just causes us to be very passive.
And the reality is this, when we are in union with Christ, it will not lead to active or passive independence.
Instead, it actually leads to a life of dependent activity.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: I like that. Yeah.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: I love how John Best. I'm coming out of one of his books called Resolving Misunderstandings of the Exchange for Life, and he says, laboring while resting in his adequacy. That's. That's where it just sounds so backward, doesn't it? Yeah, that's where I threw out that question. How on earth do I rest while laboring?
You got any words for that, Carl?
[00:01:40] Speaker B: No, I do like that. I do like that phrase, dependent activity.
Dependent activity. Yeah, I've heard it. I've heard the rumors or the lies or the.
The charges that this grace life is too passive, that trusting is too passive, that. That we need to. We need to be doing something.
And it's.
Oh, man, just even Jesus words.
My father is. Is at work to this day, you know, And.
Yeah, so I don't know if it's a Western idea, if it's an American idea, but just to me, it's. It's a controlling, independent spirit that pushes back on trust as being passive.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Sure, sure. Yeah. When I. When I sit down and I walk people through, like, they might have these huge issues in their life and they come in and they want those things to be resolved. And it's like, well, listen, it took you 30 or 40 or 50 years to get into this, like. So I think a lot of the difficulty is you think that it's gonna. Oh, if I just meet with you a few times, if I just. It's like, no, it took you a long time to get into this. Can Take you a while to retrain your thought process, how you perceive things, how you see God, how you see yourself. All these things have to be addressed. And. And it's a journey. It's a tough journey to trust, as we have talked about over and again. And I don't think that we can say it too much.
We always fall back into this. This kind of trust thing. And maybe it's. Maybe it's a rut for some people, but I think it's a good rut to be in because that's the journey.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: That's all there is.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Right. And. And I don't see it as. As being passive at all. I've never seen no. So much more action of God, what He's up to, what he's doing, who he's calling out, who he's drawing near. Just. Just all the. Who's he connecting us to.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: And so, I mean, even before we answer that question of laboring while resting, what about the first part of that? Active or passive independence?
[00:04:09] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: You know, what do you make of that statement? Active or passive independence?
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's. It reminds me, it takes me to a real revelation of the flesh.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: That I can be doing a lot of really good things, but even the good things can be very much still just flesh. And the best way to define flesh is just to say human effort.
It's just me doing it on my own, which is independence. So it can be active or it can be passive, but it's still independence. And that's not faith, that's not trust.
It just. It lacks all of that.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: But it can look really good.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, it can.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: But guess what? Sometimes fruit is plastic.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Fruit can be plastic. You don't want to eat it, but it sure looks good.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Yep.
Oh, man, that's so true.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: And then the passive independence, you know, to me, it's like a shot at, okay, well, I'm checked out.
I'm gonna live in isolation.
You know, God hasn't been really good to me, so I'm just gonna live independently. So I'm not living independently for God. I'm just actually just being passive. And I'm not actually trusting.
And. And I'm just. I'm living a passive independence as opposed to an active, let's get things done, do this all. But, but both are still missing dependency on faith. Trust in the Father.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Totally.
We are in union with Christ. And even just thinking about that, like, trying to wrap your mind around that idea even, is very difficult.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: And. And then we'll get to Galatians 2:20, maybe today, maybe later.
But that's where it really talks about, you know, like, I've been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live, I live by Christ in me. Basically, you know, I'm kind of blending Colossians 2 with it.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Colossians 1 and 2 with it.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: But it's the message of the new covenant, of the reality of Christ, the finished work of Christ.
And it's so easy, I think, to.
I don't know, maybe it's not even easy to understand theologically how all this works, but maybe it's easy to understand it, theology, theologically, far more than it is to actually understand what does this mean for me, and where am I left at in this picture?
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: And so there's so many questions to that whole thing. And so I wanted to kind of dig into and talk about. Because this is where my mind went as I was thinking about these things of just like, boy, I made a big move from Michigan down to Florida.
And a number of years ago, you made a.
Not as big of a move, but it's still a big move.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Because you move out of state, you know, you move from New Jersey to Virginia.
And the question is, what does that look like in the. In the midst of all this? Because when I think of. When I think about coming down here to Florida, I think it's like there was no logical sense to it, ministry wise.
There was no connection down here.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: And so.
So yes, to some that can look very passive and like, y' all are just gonna go down there and sit on the beach and just hope that God's gonna.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: That sounds good.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: You just went to the beach and it happens. It does happen.
And I've done worship things on the beach and.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: So.
But it's just amazing, like, when I think about this whole journey of being active but not independent, I'm instead actually dependent on the Father.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: And moving down here, like I said, it didn't make sense, but when I look at the last year that I've been here, it's like I knew I was moving in. A mutual pastor friend of mine connected me to another pastor that's here.
So it connected me to a church, which connected me to a businessman, which connected me to an office, connected me to an audience, connecting me to clients and connecting me to community, connections to outreach. I mean, when I just think of all the list of things that I'VE been involved in since I've been here, having come down here almost like a parachute drop of. Of like a missionary just going to work. They have no connections.
It's amazing. I can look back and just think, I'm amazed, God, at what you have done. And I think it's happened. I don't think. I know. I see so much more clearly that it's not about, like, the grace of God is not passive at all. It's very, very active, and it's exciting.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: So maybe our problem in the Christian circles is we actually can't even define what grace really is.
We don't understand it. We're not getting it for ourselves. We've talked about that many times.
And so if we can't define it right, then I'm gonna think it's too passive or it's like John lynch uses the phrase, like a condiment. We'll just give a little grace.
Give a little grace for that.
That could be a bigger issue.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
I'm just thinking back to when I first got down here, and I connected only with the pastor in the beginning, and it was great. I was excited.
And then I was. I was introduced to kind of Venice area, which I've kind of been in a little bit before, just visiting down here. But it's like, boy, God, I don't know. I just feel like this is where things are gonna be. And I'm excited about if it is, and I'm excited about if it isn't. But I was kind of just at this place of. I was walking and praying up and down streets every once in a while. Just drive out here and just walk.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: And I'd say, God, is. Is this the place? Like, well, is. How about this place? Like, what's. What's this going to look like, God? Like, what's. What's next?
And then a year later, here I am, like, in Venice, literally a few minutes from the downtown area where I was just praying. And I'm in an office and I'm connected to a church that literally meets and their offices are right below me. And just.
It all just blows my mind because if it was me trying to put it together, I couldn't have. I couldn't have put it together.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: And so that's how I know. And even when I was, like, three months into being here, stepping into an office, and people like my family were going, what do you. You already have an office?
I can't believe how. How fast things are moving forward, I'm just like, I I don't know. I don't even. I can't even understand it, except I can understand it because that's just God.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Yeah, It's.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: It's simply just God. And. And the problem is, this is what we do. Like going back to the whole kind of American model, so to speak, or the American mindset is this would be the time for me, in that context and that kind of thinking, to say, that's the model, folks. This is what you should do. Step in and do these things. You know, step into a city and start praying up and down the street. It's like, no, it might not work the same for you.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: And this could have been a terrible mistake moving down here.
And I would have been okay with that, too.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Because in all of it, God was. Was directing and guiding us to our next step. And so, yeah, it's just interesting. Lots of things that we could chew on in that whole subject because you could have.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: You could have moved anywhere and God could. God would have been in union with you.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Things. Yeah. We're so afraid of the Jonah complex that somehow I'm disobeying God if I didn't go somewhere, right.
That. And it's like, man, I have a trust that if I actually did something that I didn't see God leading me to, Right. He's getting. He's gonna get me there. He's gonna bring me exactly where I should be. He's gonna, you know, be. Connect me to exactly who he wants me to connect.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah. It's funny you bring up the Jonah complex, especially being down here in Florida.
I was just out with my family yesterday at the beach.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: I don't usually go out very far because it kind of scares me.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: But of course, I wanted to go out to the sandbar and look around for stuff. And so I got on the paddle board and paddled my way out there.
But, yeah, I'm not.
I'm not afraid. If God wants to swallow me up in a. In a whale, I'll minister to whoever else is in there.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Could you still see land? Or you went. You went far?
[00:12:48] Speaker A: No, we could still see land. We're all.
We're not that crazy.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I mean, think about, you know, that question. Right. Moving away. We both done it. So for me, it's five years.
It's five years on Wednesday. Well, by the time that you guys listen to this, it's going to be the best.
And so five years and looking back and saying, wow, this was. I Mean, I would say. I would use this phrase. I don't know if it's biblical, if it's godly, but it's. I'm right where God has me. Like, like. Like where he has me and. And the. The people that he's connected us to.
It's been amazing and. And it's been beautiful. And it. And I couldn't have made it up. I couldn't. I couldn't have wrote a better script for my life than the script that God's writing.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: And so I think that that's that part of trust, of, like you said, like, we went down to Charlotte to look. We went out to Michigan, went down to Illinois. There was different places we looked at.
And. And then coming down here, it seemed like this was where. Now does this. Where he's going to have us forever. No. I want to hold everything loosely. I don't want to be like this to God. I want to be like this to God. And whatever that. Whatever that looks like. And. And even for you and me, our lives look different, you know, in. In our friend Scott Rolfe that. That walked alongside me. Like, you know, his life looks different. And so I just love this. This, this. Scott didn't say, hey, Carl, here's the model. Do it. I didn't say, hey, Zach, here's the model. Do it. It's like, whatever, God, you know, obedience from the heart.
And. And again, going back to that phrase. Laboring while resting in his inadequacy.
Laboring.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: While resting in his adequacy.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: And it's like, how do we.
How do we really hear and trust the spirit who is, you know, teaching us all things?
That's always what I think that's a common question is, well, how do I really know what God is telling me to do?
It's like, well, so one step in front of the other. I really love that. I think I said that about the path.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: You know, I love the cave where the light only was shining far enough for the next step.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: You don't always know.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: So just rest and where you're at and in that next step and trust who you know has you and is going to guide you.
So for sure, you picked up the book, you guys.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: No, just. No, Zach, that's. I love it. I love it. That. That we want to see.
How is it all going to work out? Even though we recite by memory, we walk by faith, not by sight.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: Right, Right.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: But we all want to see it. Well, how does this work out? Taking the leap Right. Taking the leap of, of moving to Florida or moving to central Virginia. And how's this all gonna. I don't know. I don't know. And so in 2019, when our life falls apart. You can hear about my life falling apart in episodes one and two. So went so bad. It was two episodes. So much action. Right. So much action of God. Right. And so I, we, we went to this, this, this place of healing for us was, was with the brothers and sisters about 20 minutes away from where we lived. And the pastor prayed over us, and he just prayed. And I don't remember exactly if he prayed for the manna, but basically just that. That God would give us enough for that day. And it became sort of this beautiful, beautiful testament of God's provisions and faithfulness that he provided for us every day.
Every day. We had what we needed for life and godliness every day. We had a roof over our heads and we had food like, like every day.
Going through Covid and then moving down here. And it was just a beautiful reminder of God given us what we need for that day. And just like you said about the cave, he gives us the light for that day. Right, Right.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: And he's always present. It's like there are seasons that it feels like, man, I'm praying these things, but I just don't have answers. I don't get it.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: And I'm seeing it. I'm seeing it even in people, even in text. Just today with, with a guy that's just like, I'm. I'm starting to see some clarity. It's like he's been asking question, asking question, asking questions like, what's next? Where am I going? What am I doing? And it's like, I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to point you to the one that's going to direct your step and trust Him.
But that's where we go to, like, Jesus, really. The, the thing that he exemplified was not necessarily a specific example exactly of how to live, like, physically. This is what he did. This is what I should do.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: If there was anything that he did, it was him just being dependent on the Father and He trusted.
And so when it comes to us, it's the same thing.
And it's not just this passive dependence. It's an active dependence on a God who dwells in me, Christ in me, the Holy Spirit is in me, and he teaches me all things and he guides.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: And it's such a, such a beautiful thing because that's what? You know, I got this. This book took me to Second Corinthians, chapter three, which is just. And four and five, because I just kept reading because there was so much. God was just.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Was speaking over and over, and I can't even get to everything that I would love to even talk about.
2nd Corinthians 3. 5 says, not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: It is him, you know, that pours through us as us, like we're in union.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: It doesn't make us God.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: It just makes us in union.
It's really hard to comprehend, but I think it really makes so much sense to really understand.
And I think that along with this passive thing, this is what he talks about in this. In this chapter.
That along with thinking that there's this passivity, there's also this idea that we lose our personality when we have this union with Christ and we just become this robot that just. And I think that's what we always used to teach people is like, live this way.
This is what you got to do. If you want to live the godly life. If you want to be blessed, this is what you do. When we give them this list of things.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: And so that's. That's so not even dependence on God.
It's really. That. That is really independence. That's really me just trying to live according to a list of things.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:28] Speaker A: That makes me feel like I'm doing the right thing or so and so says I. I look good because I'm doing these things. And so I feel good about it, but it really is very, very empty. And so, man, when I got into. I'll. I'll share a little bit out of Second Corinthians 3.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: Blow me away, man. Yeah, go ahead.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: It's so good. Like, I'm. I'm just gonna jump all over the place because. Well, first of all, in chapter four, he talks about us having this. This ministry. What is this ministry? It takes us all the way back to chapter three, that in verse six says, he has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant.
Yeah, I love this. I love the way it concludes because it's so crucial. It's not by the letter, but by the Spirit, because the letter, which is the law, kills, but the Spirit gives life. And one of, like, just the most gripping thing that we've talked about this even recently, and we talked about it maybe like our fifth or sixth episode. Too much more. Romans 5 and then you get to this chapter and much more appears again.
Man, I could read the whole thing, but it's like verse seven. Now, if this.
If the ministry that brought death, which was the law, was engraved in letters on stone, if those came with glory so that the Israelites couldn't even look at the face of Moses because of its glory, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? And verse nine says, if the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the mystery that brings men righteousness?
There's so much incredible stuff in this, and I love that. Made me jump even to the end of chapter five, because that last verse, I mean, I've memorized that long ago. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. And I've always just kind of associated that with. Yeah, just like Abraham, right? It's like. No, not like Abraham.
It's different.
It's different in the New Covenant. It's different under Jesus and his crucifixion and us being crucified with them, that we're not just given this righteousness as this. This covering or this blessing. He says, we are made righteous.
And this verse says that we might become the righteousness of God. And so in that trust in him, we become something new.
So, man, there's so much good stuff in there. I don't know if something jumped out to you, too, that you want to share, but, yeah, I could go on and on.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: Just. I mean, just going back to Jesus makes us sufficient. Like our sufficiency is found in him, from him, in union with Him.
And that's for every single person. It's not just for guys that went to Bible college and.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: You know, up front. No, it's. Yes, all of us.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: All of us are ministers. All of us are qualified. All of us.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: Because it's Christ.
It's Christ.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And we don't lose our personalities. That's another thing I kind of hinted at. And he talks about this in here. And this is what's so beautiful about it. I even think, like, that list. I think it's in Ephesians, chapter four.
That's somewhere in there. You know, some are apostles and preachers and teachers and different things. I. I really am kind of chewing on all that and saying God. I feel like a lot of that is even just personalities. It's just us living out of who we are.
And it's you, God, doing your work through your people, through the church, which is your people. Yeah, the people that trust you and know you.
Right? People.
It's people.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah, man.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: God works in us both to motivate us to. To action. So there is action. It's not passive. But he also enables us to do what we're able to do. And this is how, like Galatians 2:20, I mentioned a little bit. I've been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and delivered himself up for me.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: So good.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: I love how he in this book really breaks this down. And I've heard this before, but it's just so good to come back to it. The first two, I, because he mentions I, I, I, I four times.
And the first two in this passage, I have been crucified with. Christ is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. The first two are talking about the old man who is dead who has been crucified.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Right?
[00:23:55] Speaker A: The old. The old Adamic nature, sinful nature, man who is now dead.
And the next two eyes which says, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God.
And this is the new man. Like there's this, there's. In this one verse, there's this great transition of, here's the old, now here's the new.
Trust in this newness of life. There's this change.
And the change is not behavior, not managing my sin, because sin can't be managed.
The change is that he chooses to trust not his own strength, but to actively trusting Christ in him. And it really changes everything.
And it has in me.
We're walking in the newness of life in which we've already had for all these years, but we didn't know.
And so, thank you, God, that we get to know you intimately. Amen.