Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello. We welcome you to another episode of let's talk life. 38 weeks in, and we've not run out of things to talk about.
Is that possible?
I don't. I don't think it's possible. I think we have so much. There's so much to dissect and understand and. Yeah, it's an exciting journey. So our purpose is to come alongside of fellow travelers, recognizing that we're traveling this journey ourselves to.
And learning as we go. And it's such a beautiful thing.
So let's Talk Life is our podcast title, but it's. It's what we do.
Jesus is life. Christ in me. The hope of glory.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Learning. Learning to live from that reality instead of trying to live for God and to please God, but living from this new creation that we already are.
So. Amen. It's been a good day.
Good morning, Carl. How you doing?
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Is it Monday?
[00:01:00] Speaker A: It's Monday.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: You know, I appreciate you bringing that up, because our identity in Christ, I think there's some misunderstandings on it.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: And just. No, this is about Christ and me. This isn't. This isn't about elevation of self. This is. This is about how big God is.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: And that he has given me his life.
Like that Romans 6 passage that you love so much and. Yes, so much more. Like there's much more than just the same. You know, again, for 19 years, just preaching the same message, which is, Jesus died on the cross for your sins. Believe in him and you'd be saved. And then. And then we all go home and we all feel good, but. Had nothing to do with my life.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Because I didn't know.
I didn't know. Nobody knew.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: That there's more.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: We knew enough. Or we tried. This is maybe for a future thing to discuss, but I love this. This idea that we've trusted Jesus with our sin, but we're not trusting him with our life.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: And that's the dynamic that's been missing the church context of what we grew up in and what we did, even serving. And it was just like it was always.
Just live pure. It was always readjust, refocus. Do this, do that.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: It was always just another book to read and a list of things to do.
And it wasn't about equipping you to recognize and know who you are in Christ and to know that you can live from there. So rather than striving to be holy, I can actually rest in the fact that, well, Christ in me, I'm a temple of the holy. I am holy.
Christ couldn't be in me if I wasn't holy.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: It's all him.
He qualifies us. He makes us one.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah, right. So. And it's tough because we still sin.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: And so Paul identifies that as sin is in the flesh. It's something that, yes, I do, but it's not who I am. It's. And that's what he's really trying to express and get across. And that's what he's saying in Romans, chapter six. Do you not know?
It's like I've told you this, and I've told you this and I want you to know this, but you're not understanding what I'm saying. And so we're in chapter four of this incredible book, the Past.
And I just love right how it starts off like it just says we've long been under a curse. But it gets right into the answer and says, but Jesus, Jesus has broken your curse.
And so it says to be gentle with yourself as you learn to walk as a loved one man.
I really love that. And that that was the battle before is that I couldn't, I couldn't believe that God could actually love me.
Like he loved me enough to save me from my sin, but again, not to, you know, care about my day to day life. And so, yeah, interesting stuff.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: We've long been under a curse.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
Wow.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Be gentle with yourself. So even thinking about your journey and that, that phrase, be gentle with yourself, is that easy for you to do or hard?
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Oh, it's, I mean it's, it's very hard.
I think it's become easier and easier as I've learned to trust in the finished work of Christ because no longer do I look at my own life and my mistakes. And when I do get in the flesh and I sin because I do, it's no longer a guilt that turns into shame and something that I just cast on myself and I think I'm worthless. No longer do I live in that cycle.
I actually have come to a point of resting in who I am. And so even when I do sin, it's like, ah, shoot, that was stupid. But I don't live there very long.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: And that, that's the beautiful part of it for sure. So I think I've, I'm learning and I think I've done better than ever in my life being gentle with myself. But that's a fantastic question. How would you answer that, Carl?
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think that we, we are, or we can be very Critical with negative self talk with.
And before people start thinking, we're all into mumbo jumbo psychology. It's interesting. Jesus said, you trust in the Father, trust also in me, as it says there in the book, Trust me, John 14:1.
And so am I going to trust who Jesus is in me, or am I going to trust my failures? Am I going to trust in all my sins?
[00:06:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Because Proverbs says a righteous man falls seven times, but he gets back up. So am I going to trust in what the world says about me and who I think I am? Trust who the Father declares I am?
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: I think it makes a big difference in our life.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: For sure. For sure.
That was the context of me starting a nonprofit. I began by just actually titling the whole thing. Life, not lies.
Because we do. We grow.
We grow in life. Just as we grow up in life, we grow to believe in things that are really false about who we are.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: And so we've. We've got this base of, in this foundation of lies, and we're living our whole life based on these lies.
And so when true, the truth comes, which is the life, it's Jesus.
It really obliterates all that. And so we try and try and try to combat those lies, but the only way to do that is to bring the truth into the picture and to trust that truth with our own life. And that's really the transformation that we've talked about that over.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: And I propose this. Zachary. I. I don't believe. We think we're. They're lies.
And I think that's the struggle. We. We don't actually believe these are lies. We're believing.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Right. I mean.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: So. So we, we think it's the truth. I gotta try harder. I gotta strive. I'm really. I'm really a sinner because I sinned.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Oh, totally.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Right. So we don't actually believe they're lies. We actually believe that's the truth. But looking back.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: Sure. Or.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: Or just sort of like looking at yourself from a 10, 000 foot.
Oh, these are wise guys.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. I love that you. You made that distinction. Because that is really crucial because that's exactly it for me. I.
All that journey of growing up in the church and serving the church, it's like I had these struggles, but I never could actually put it back to them being alive. I couldn't put a title on it being a lies. It was just because I was conditioned to think that I was the problem, basically because I was a sinner. Right. And I couldn't actually receive. What God's word was telling me was the truth is that you're a saint.
And it's like, well, I can't accept that because I've failed too many times, or I, I'm still filthy. I still do this or that. I can't believe that about myself.
But I love, I love the storyline too, of this, of this book. Yes.
And what's happening. And I love how, how God comes into the picture as a character and just is. Is journeying with this character, Tal, and a couple of times, like, face to face with Jesus, and then all of a sudden, like, Jesus is just kind of gone and then he's face to face with the shepherd character in this chapter. And, and, and it's the, you know, the true shepherd is our God. And, and, and then also all of a sudden there's this kind of like this dialogue and then all of a sudden there's kind of this fading and, and, and the shepherd is far away. And it's all this journey of, of Tal really coming to this recognition and this trust of I don't have to be physically present with this manifestation of, of God. God is with me, always loves me, Christ in me. Wow. Like, just learning to, to trust.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: I just really love that. I love that about this whole chapter. It wasn't just like, saying, this is how it is. It was kind of just playing it out and I just, I really just appreciated it. So I love this.
You know, Jesus just kind of disappeared from, from the physical scene. And, and here's Touch really trying to struggle in this struggle. And, and, and, and she says this. I believe and I didn't believe.
I believed and I didn't believe. I trusted and I didn't trust. You know, like, there's this thing that's going on inside of her to try to understand. And I just so can resonate with that.
There's still so much it says that I didn't understand, so much I struggled to grasp, but it was at the same time thrilling.
And that's. It just so resonates with exactly what I've experienced these last couple of years of, like, I don't totally understand this, but at the same time, it's the most exciting thing in the world.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: So there's confidence.
There's like this confidence. And I love how this is actually what it says. I was a kid of the King, out for an adventure, so that's the confidence that we actually can have because that's exactly who we are. Wow. That's what makes it an adventure. It makes it so much enjoyable.
More enjoyable than it's ever been.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: Right. It's, it's, it's, it's beautiful. It's, it's an adventure by faith.
It's, it's like all the verses that we've known are actually true. It's just now we see them clearly.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Yes. Of.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: We walk by faith, not by sight. Well, that's about everything.
You know, even, you know, we, we talk about being in the church for so many years. I mean, I, I, I look back at that.
One of the hardest days of the month for me was the board meeting. Days of the board meeting. Because it would be, it would be a fight, it'd be a struggle. It would be religious, religion based.
It would be not on the things of Galatians 5.
And so I would sit there and think, I look back and say, we never trusted God, like as a, as a, as a, as leadership.
I didn't trust God. Nobody else was. It was all about our, our money.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: All the money that we had.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: How we were, we were really smart with our money. We're able to save it and accumulate it. Like a personal statement. But I just look back and say, there was no trust. And I think that's one of the greatest mysteries is what does it look like to actually trust God.
[00:12:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. Because there's a mentality that to just sit back and trust Christ in me is very passive.
And that's, that's such a mistake.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: It is.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: That's such a mistaken thought. It's actually far more difficult.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: And it, and it leaves you so much like, like our, our thing to do in trusting is just, it's overwhelming sometimes.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
It's overwhelming. So overwhelming.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I.
Trusting. It's really a journey of really trusting the Holy Spirit. And what's really amazing is I feel like all along the way I thought, I think I'm trusting the Holy Spirit.
I loved. Even last night, in some conversation that we had, one of the young people just said, you know, I'm at this precipice of, like, making some decisions. And it's like, is this what God wants or is it what I want?
Is this what God wants or is this what I want?
And it's. And so I brought up a testimony that I heard from Frank Friedman and one of the professional athlete that he mentored. And he just asked this guy, what do you want to do? And he said, I really want to play baseball.
It's like, we feel like there's this big thing that God has for us in the kingdom. And I'm going to grasp hold of that thing.
And Frank himself was going to be a star player, a kicker on a football team. But he felt called into ministry and his pastor said, you better not back down on what God has called you to and go out and be a kicker. You need to get into Bible college and go to be a pastor. And he comes back full circle around to that story to say, do what you most want to do. So the guy said, I really want to play baseball, so go play baseball.
And in the midst of that, God opened up opportunity and door for him to start a non profit and to do so much, so many more things than he could have if he didn't take that journey.
But what if, like it's not about, oh, is this what God wants or is this really what I want? Well, what if what we want is actually the same thing and we think that. No, that's selfish. I can't think that way. But, but it's learning to understand and listen to, as the book calls it, the wind song. It's, it's God's voice and God's leading and God's. And it's amazing that when the more that I'm in tune with trusting or learning to trust him, the more my desires align with his desires. And I'm just, okay, right.
[00:14:47] Speaker B: And, and again it's, it's this American model of Christianity that says, what are you going to do next? Or are you going to go into ministry or whatever it may be? And it's like you read the book, you read the Book of Acts and Paul is just on a mission. He's just, he's just on an adventure. And if he's, and if he's, and if he's at the, you know, selling tents or making tents or if he's talking to somebody or.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Whatever it is, whatever he does is Christ in him.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: Right?
So I love this statement out of the book.
The only instruction you need is to trust God.
It's like, wow. So, yeah, it sounds really passive. It sounds really simple because it really is. Like what we are to do is very simple, but the doing of it is not simple at all.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Just, it's so gripping.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And if I don't, if you don't mind if I go to the guide notes. Yeah. On page 95 it says, what if all gone? What if all God wanted from you was to trust him?
[00:15:51] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: What if that's all God wanted was for you to trust him right now because we think, oh, I got to go preach all these sermons or I got to go do evangelism rally, or I got to go talk to this person.
And it's like, what if, what if, what if? The main thing, like the most important thing that was for you to just trust him right now.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Just trust him. Yes. Yes.
The reason why I loved this chapter and why I wanted to talk about it here.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: Is because there is this distinction and I think this is really crucial to even understand.
There's these settlers, these field settlers, and there's these rock face scalers. So you have these settlers and these scalers. And I think that like modern Christianity, modern Christian thought is that we want to, we should be either one or the other. And what we kind of conclude is that to be the most godly individual. It's really a blend of these two things when in reality what you just said is actually what we are to be doing. What if the greatest thing.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: That God is calling us to is to simply trust him.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: Right. So if I was, if I was the, if I was the climber, if I was a scaler, what would I, what would that look like, Zach?
[00:17:05] Speaker A: Well, it's all human effort.
It's all just. I'm, I'm going to work really hard. I'm going to be very busy. I'm going to dream up all kinds of dreams and I'm going to make those dreams come reality.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: And I'm going to ask God along the way to, to help me with it.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: But I'm going to be very frustrated doing it and overwhelmed and I'm going to be begging for, you know, money and help.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: And it comes kind of like self reliant, self sufficient.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Right?
[00:17:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it's, I think that's the one that most people really resonate with because it's like, yeah, God has done something so good for me. Now it's time for me to step in and do something for him.
Time for me to do my part is what we always really good. Have said.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: Well phrase. Well phrase. And so then what would the. This, the settlers, what would that look like? The field settlers.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: The settlers. I mean, this is probably where I would naturally even be myself.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Good.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: It's just more passive.
It just, I see it, I see it with people. I see it even in myself. It's like, oh, there's so many, there's many, so, so many good resources, so many good books, so many things to listen to and learn from and I just want to sit back and like just rest in who I am and just, and just, you know, so there, there is a way that we can be very passive and, and not step into actually trusting God with our life. And that is a reality. That's where a lot of people say, oh, you can have too much grace.
And that's going to create this passivity. But I think there's, there's obviously truth to that, but that's, that's. Anybody, any, any one of us can fall into this trap. But I think that just because I do either this passivity or, or the striving, no matter which one I pursue, the reality is it's all going to lead me back. If I'm really sensitive to the Holy Spirit, he's going to leave me to himself and he's just going to say, trust me, you've been trying on your own or you've been sitting in this field for a long time.
Just, just trust me. Would you just do that?
[00:19:11] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: That's what he's calling us to.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Whether I am. So just to sum it up, so if I'm a, a rock face scaler, I am, I'm action. I'm a man of action. Right. I'm doing all these things.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Oh yeah. Yep.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: And to prove I'm serious about Jesus, I'm serious about God.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: And, and there's, there's a lot of fear.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: And then the settlers are, well, I have Jesus now. I'm just gonna kind of like just gonna sit back and look at everything. And, and there's fear there too. So both, both are totally, you know, fear based living.
[00:19:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: As opposed to the third option, which is. Can you talk about that, that third option. The, yeah, there said the path. Talk about.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah. The third option is stepping into the cave. And the cave is, is frightening because you can't see what's in front of you, can't see where you're going.
So it's, it's, it's really, that's where trust comes in and that's what you already touched on. And that's really the, the greatest thing that we could possibly do. That's really the, that's the title of the, of the whole or the question of the chapter. What if all God wanted from you was to trust him?
[00:20:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: And so we get into this cave and this is the reality. Since I am in Christ and he's the light, therefore we are just like the Bible says, the light of the world.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: And so what I really appreciate about the way that it depicted it in a little video clip is that the light only shown, like, enough for me to take one step. It wasn't like I could see the whole tunnel.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: I could see it all. Because every single step is a step of trust.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Right? Yes.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: And it's frightening and it's far more difficult, but it's far more rewarding.
So we can stay back in the field or we can stay up on the rock cliff trying to do all kinds of things for God. But man, when we can just rest in who we are, there's so much more joy.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And the authors say it's more challenging path.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: And it requires effort. It's never passive. Hardest thing ever is to trust him, Surrender everything to him totally. Right. Yielding control is the term they use. It's the way of Jesus.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: You know, that's how he lived his life.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: We've talked about that. Yes. The way we receive grace, for sure. And then it finishes by 102. I'd love for you to touch on this. There's three different ways it plays out when it comes to our identity.
The field, the rock face, and in the cave. If you want to share those three.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Oh, man. In the field. We believe that my new identity is nice add on to my life, but it doesn't really affect my decisions.
I might be a sinner, but that's okay. God loves me anyway.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: So we're just add on. Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Stuck there. It's an add on. Yeah. The rock faces like my new identity wipes, you know, my slate clean.
But now I need to work hard to become a new person.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: We're not really trusting in the reality of us being a new person. But in the cave, my new identity is fundamentally changed. Yes. It's changed me forever, and it's real and it's complete. The rest of my life is letting Jesus teach me how to live out of what's true. I am a saint, man. Wow. Such a beautiful, beautiful picture. It takes us back to what did Jesus do? There's only one answer to that little bracelet question.
He trusted the Father.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: And we've turned that into do this and do that and do this and do that. I'll just trust the Father and then the overflow of that will be the doing so. Another episode of let's talk life. It's such a joy to do this. So thank you for tuning in.
