Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Carl and I have been journeying together and with so many others into Christ as life and understanding what that means for me, for you, for us as believers. And we're talking today about living loved.
And we're coming off the book. You know, we've, we've referenced this book many times. He loves me.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: He wants you to know you are loved. And.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: Just to take that statement alone and really, the title of the book. Can you actually claim this statement as truth for you, that God truly loves me. And boy, just receiving that alone is earth shaking. So that's our discussion today.
Carl, how you doing up there in Virginia?
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah, doing well. Yeah. I think mosquitoes are biting my legs.
Yeah. Just the idea of living loved is great. And had a conversation with a pastor yesterday and, you know, just, just coming out of the, the trip to Washington a couple weeks ago where my body is still recovering because of so many things of life that have happened over the last two weeks. But, but what I loved about being out there is it wasn't a Christian culture. Like, like, I loved it. Like, I was just, like, thinking about the possibilities of loving people like Jesus when they've never experienced it.
And, and, and how in a Christian culture, the question is always a. What church do you go to? Like, it's the first, first question. Right. That people ask when. In the conversations of. What church. What church.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: And. And I was just thinking as you were talking, and I was talking with this pastor yesterday, like, what kind of questions would be good around here to get past what church you go to, to what's going on in your heart? Right.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: What's going on your heart? And.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: And so when you, when we bring up living loved, it's like maybe a question would be, you know, do you know you're fully loved? Or how do you know? Or do you believe? Right. Do you believe you're loved? Do you believe you're lovable? Like, those are all great questions. Because it's like, I didn't believe I was fully loved my whole life. I didn't either.
[00:02:18] Speaker A: Yep.
Yep. And there's, there's so much of that.
That's, that's the reality, I think, of this, this subculture really, that has been created under the guise of Christianity. And it doesn't mean that everybody within. It's not a child of God, but there's so many children of God that don't really understand what that means. But, but by, by definition, by just the title itself, I'm a child of God.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Yes, man. Right.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: That in Itself says I'm loved.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Self says that I have access.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: He's not against me.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: But then you also have this. This world that is very broken, and a lot of fathers that are not fathers.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: And so you have a lot of brokenness.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: So that's why people have a lot of confusion with that. For sure.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Right. And. And so going back to previous podcasts of ours where we talked about being enslaved there.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: So an enslaved error is not living with. With all the resources that. That God has for us. We're. We're living like it's. It's. I don't know how it's. Good analogy, but. But we're just not. We're not tapping into Christ in me. And so when I'm not living fully loved, it's the same thing. I'm living less love. So I'm gonna. You know, and I think that's what we're going to talk about now. What does that look like? What does that mean?
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Yeah. So good.
I. Yeah. I wanted to start off just with a quote that he begins with. It says this. The mind of a Pharisee thinks truth is more important than love.
But Jesus showed us that love is the most important part of truth.
And that. That really just has stuck with me.
I just finished going through this book with a group of guys, and all week long, I've just kind of been chewing on that very thing. Because if.
If I'm not.
If I'm not living loved, the reality is I'm not going to begin to live loved by. By you. Like throwing truth in my face and saying, you need to understand the truth.
It doesn't keep it from being the truth. Like, what you might be sharing with me might very much be the truth, but I can't receive it when you show me truth more than you show me love.
And so Jesus shows us that love is the most important part of truth.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: So good.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: So greater than you getting the truth is you getting loved.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: And I think that's really the. The testimony that I experienced just even walking with you through this is you had the answer, but you weren't there to fix me.
You were just there to.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: Allow God to do what he needed to do in me. And that was the most loving thing, even though you knew the truth.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: You just loved.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm gonna just go back to some things you said to me in. In some texts and conversations. It's the hardest thing to do. It's the hardest thing to do to trust instead of fix.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Well, we think I, we can't fix anything. We can't fix anybody. But that's what we do.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Right?
[00:05:45] Speaker B: So, so the hardest people say I'll trust is so passive or trust is so easy. I believe that that's not true. I believe it is the hardest.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: It's the hardest thing.
It's the hardest thing. We talked about that too. Receiving in a previous podcast about how difficult it is just to receive.
It's like we oftentimes can't even receive a gift without saying, well, how much does this cost? How much can I give you to. And it's like, no, it's a gift.
And we think because in, in today's world, yeah, anything that you're getting for free probably has some sort of hook, lion sinker in it.
And so we stay far away from it. And the crazy part is there is this, this hook with the gospel message too. But it's the greatest hook in the world that's going to give you eternal life, give you an abundant joy in your life right now.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Right now.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: But it's so hard to grab hold of and to really believe and to really allow myself to be loved.
It's trust. And it's so very difficult to trust that that's a reality.
And it's amazing how small we make God and how we put him in a little box.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Right?
[00:06:56] Speaker A: To think that, yeah, he's not big enough to love me because of all my screw ups is what we, we would like to put a list of all our things. Like if only you knew is what we always say out to other people. But again, God does know. And so therefore, and it's no, we're.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Fully known and fully loved and, and it's not one or the other.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: So good.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: It's not one of the other. And so going back to this quote, truth is more important than love. The, the Pharisee says we have to defend the truth. And the Pharisee says we have to know this is what it says. You know that. And go back to Jesus always picking fights, provoking, I mean healing, healing on the Sabbath, as John Elvich points out, like he's, he's picking fights with them, you know, so what does he do the next Sabbath? Does something else. Right, Right. And so it's like he's, he's provoking them right at the heart of their hyp. Democracy.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: And, and again, it's just the Pharisees, black and white, you know, whether it's the woman caught in adultery, use Quotes because the man wasn't there. Right, right. And, and so, and well what Moses said this, what do you say? You know, it's always trying to test him, trying to trap him.
Because truth. And it's really like their truth, not God's truth. Their truth was more important than love.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: And I think that this is, this is such a epidemic in the, in the, in the church, in the American church. I mean that's all I know is, is we, we, we've. We value truth more important than love.
And he's, he's saying Jesus showed us love is the most important part of truth.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Man. I so love that. It reminds me of a post that I put out not too long ago that just said what if the greatest commandment isn't to love but is to receive God's love?
And because Jesus very, very clearly stated a new command I give you, he says. And Jesus is, is saying a new command I give you love one another as, as I've loved you.
So a new command is loving one another.
The how to love one another is by me receiving God's love.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: So I'm loved in the same way that I'm set free and I'm healed. The same way that I have victory in my life. It's really that going back to that word trust and the Bible says this is who I am. And, and now I have this choice. Am I going to believe what the Bible says I am or am I going to trust how I feel about who I feel like I am and where am I going to go with that? But I just, I really so much love that I think it was Wayne Jacobson in some of his writing. It might not have even been this book that he really got that point across about this new command is it's the one anothering stuff that's really his whole ministry.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: That's what's really shaping my whole ministry is that it's more about just being present in one anothering.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: With other people. We're just there, we're just present, we're just with them, we just love on them. And we're not pushing our truth like we've been saying. We're not pushing it.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: We don't have an agenda other than just to let God speak to them and create that space.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: Right. I mean think everything you're saying is contrary to everything we did in the church.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: We have to tell them the truth. We have to fix them. We have to tell them.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:45] Speaker B: We gotta, we gotta solve everything yeah, yeah. And they gotta come back Sunday morning so we can do it again.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Right. Well, and, and you feel condemned because all week long you didn't live up to the last challenge, right?
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: And we can.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: Shame on everyone.
Ourselves to.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: And, and we do it to ourselves. I think our, our self shame is the biggest one for sure. We just destroy ourselves with that.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: So.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: Right. And some. Something you just said.
You think about that. We don't listen for God. We don't hear from him.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: We don't listen. We don't.
We don't. We don't even pause to. Right. To just listen. Or it's.
Yeah. A lot of noise. And, and we think we're doing the right way, you know, and so, so truth. Truth is higher than love.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:35] Speaker B: Or. Or at least the same, you know?
[00:11:38] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: That's why, that's why he says the next. In that next phrase. Nothing in this book has any value.
It's just an intellectual argument or a theology of God's love. Like I would, like I would say, as John Wynn says in True Face, if grace isn't relational, it's just someone else's thoughts. Better than someone else's if it's not relational. Paul literally says this. First Corinthians 13. You can, you can know everything. Like, like I would, I would rewrite First Corinthians 13 with, with this. If I can understand every dispensation and if I could rightly divide the word of truth and if I could give you every biblical answer. But I don't have love. Right.
Paul says.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah, A sounding gong symbol.
Yeah.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: And yet, and yet, what do we see? I mean, even in my circles, my background, just, just all intellectual arguments, divisions, splits, just casting out.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: A lot of truth.
A lot. My truth is in quotes. For those who don't got our video, you know, truth.
Right. Not love.
Love is the most important part of truth. Right, Right.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Oh, man, it's so. It's so true. And I mean, I'm just, I'm seeing right before me, like certain things happening, like people coming out of. And stepping into just being and knowing something new in them and realizing who they are.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: And. And even. Just like accepting hurt and pain for the first time in 20 years, you know?
And so it's just, it's so neat when it's not because I sat with you and I got you convinced.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: Because this is what I've been saying all along. Like if, if I can convince you of something, then someone else can reteach you and retrain you and get you to think differently.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: But, but if God can get through, if God does the revealing, if God does the speaking, you can't unsee it. It's. It changes your life.
[00:13:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: And that, I think that's exactly where we're at.
So he, he says this in here and he. I wrote Ephesians 1 and 3 in the, in the corner of the, of the book because he says his work, not, not yours, my journey has been Ephesians 1 and, and 3. Because he talks about personal revelation of, of God's love for us. Yeah. And I just love this.
Yeah. He says the same. He's going off the same kind of premise that words won't do any justice. Like, we can write all we want, we can speak all we want, but it won't do it justice. Living in his affection, we require so much more than just words.
Yeah. We need that deeper revelation.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: Where our eyes of our hearts are open to see his reality. So I can't make this happen in you, and you can't make it happen in me.
And what we simply have to do is.
This is what he gets to, is Ask, Ask God. And that's where I was like, my goodness, this has been my journey. You're like touching on everything that's, that's been. That has happened to me that got me to this place because I actually began to, to, to ask God, God, would you give me Ephesians 1:17? Would you give me a spirit of wisdom and revelation that I may know you?
And he did.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
Okay, so I'm going to pause right now, call a timeout, maybe a 20 second timeout, because if someone's listening today, it's like, man, I'm not tracking with you guys. I don't understand this. And I just love what, what the author says here, what you can do, what you can simply do. So not just for Zach, it's not just for Carl, it's for every single one of us who call Christ as our Savior, who the Holy Spirit's inside us, to simply ask him to show you the depth of his love for you. Right. The revelation of what the cross of Jesus accomplished.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Just simply ask right now.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: Just to simply ask.
And it is a simple ask. And this was even when I go back to my journey there and praying that prayer, the way that I explain it is I prayed that prayer very haphazardly.
It wasn't, it wasn't like I was. I'm committed to getting up at six.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: O' clock every day saying that. Right, Right.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: And. But God still answered it because it's not about me being diligent.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: It's really about me. I'm trusting you, God.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: I'm right.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: I'm seeking out.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: Think about that. He wasn't saying, hey, I want you to prove your sincerity. I want you. I want to see how serious you really are this time.
Are you going to wake up an hour earlier than six now?
[00:16:33] Speaker A: Like, right.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: We have a loving father who, who, whose love is greater, right? Yep.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: Greater.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: It's so beautiful. It's. It's so amazing.
So I, I wrote, I wrote these words and on the next page there. Yeah, I'm on 183. This is just for your reference, but I wrote the word frightening on the edge of the page. Frightening. And this is what I was reading when I wrote that. He. God. God will take the initiative at your invitation.
Simply ask him to begin to reveal to you how much he loves you and he will take it from there.
And it's, that's frightening because it steps me out of the, the seat where I have the controls to steer the ship.
Because. And this is what's crazy about is that whole control thing anyways, is all just an illusion.
It's just, it's such a joke.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Right? Right.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: It's so silly.
But we feel so comfortable there.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: And we think that we have this control.
And so for me to let go of that is frightening to let go of that control. And that's what I reminded of you saying this week, because I said to you, don't we just love to just hold on and have that control?
And you said, and I was referencing, what we really need to do is receive and to know and to just rest in what we have. And you came back with something that Scott really has taught you.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: Do you remember what that is? And do you want to share about that?
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Oh, I would love to. And, and just of, of how, you know, even real time, I can see as a dad of three boys how I am trying to love them on my terms. I am trying to. And so, so I get my feelings hurt if they didn't respond a certain way to something I was doing. Well, that's not actually not love, is it? That's actually not love. It's. It's me. It's me trying to control or me trying to do something. Right. So Scott shared a story with me and, and he said, our friend Scott from Michigan, Lansing, Michigan, he said that he was loving his son on, On Scott's terms.
And I was just like, oh, that's what I've been doing.
Yeah, that's what I'm doing. So we love someone and it's not received backwards or it's not returned back the same way I want.
And it's like, oh, that's. That's actually not love.
Right. That's actually not love.
Right. And. And this is what I said.
We want to relate to people on our terms.
And. And we learn through our own failures, so. We learn through failures. Yeah. God speaks to us in our failures. He speaks to us amidst our struggles, you know?
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that.
I so love. And I. I added a phrase after that. Like, we.
We typically want to relate to people on our terms, you said.
And I added that as a result of us doing that, we're actually not relatable.
We're trying to relate to them. But because it's so focused on me, it's actually not relatable for the person that I'm trying to instill. This.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: And that is really difficult because it's.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: That's.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: That's the scary part is I need to let go of control and allow even my own kids to make their own decisions with their lives.
And that's not easy for. For parents.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: You know, it's. It's not easy if you have employees. It's not easy even dealing with your neighbor. You know, it's not easy in any aspect of life. Co workers.
Let's go even.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: Let's go even closer. Right. Marriages.
Yeah. You know, marital relationship. And I actually don't want to control Jennifer. I don't want to try and fix her. That the Holy Spirit insider is doing much better job than. Than what I can do.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: That. So that's why it's like, man, this, this. This good news, this Jesus life, it's about life. It's about everything. Right?
[00:20:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: It's so good. I. I look forward to. I have a breakfast, a men's breakfast here on Saturday, and we. We titled the whole thing Discovering Life.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: And I've been grappling with. Okay, man, I have so many things I'd love to share, but what is it that we're, you know, going to discuss and talk about?
And so I got in this morning and with a little bit of frustration, but then not very long into it, I was just, like, praising God for even the frustration and just feeling at rest and. And I was just like, okay.
I also had this clarity, too, of just continue to share your story. Like, we're trying to discover freedom.
And so I just asked myself this question.
How have I discovered freedom?
And I found it by. By really just embracing the truth of God's word.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: And just knowing that I'm loved, that I'm new, that I'm a saint, you know, like, this is who I am. I'm a son of God. I'm an heir.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: And taking all those things, like just. Just those titles alone and placing them on you, because that's who you are when you are in Christ, just that alone really changes everything.
And so that's. That's the discussion that I'll just be able to throw out is, well, how do you feel about these things? Is this where you feel like you are?
[00:22:17] Speaker B: And.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: And it's so much more relatable when it's just you sharing this. This was my journey.
And it's so. It's so tricky. It's so funny when I think about, you know, there'll be other pastors there, there'll be other businessmen there. There'll be all these people that I think, why am I the guy up here?
And that's. That's the beautiful part about it all. And I'll go back to one of the first things I share with you.
When we got on our call. Not necessarily this recording, but one of the first things that I went through in class was. Was personality profiles.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: And this was the first time in class I didn't even know what I was doing. I don't know what I was getting into. I had no idea what the Life center was when I first stepped foot into it.
And so I was like, okay, here's another profile. You know, we've done these a million times, but this was different. Like, and it just hit differently. And I've had this on my desk kind of all morning, just kind of chewing on it, because everybody has their own specific personalities.
And like, if you're gifted and you have a business person or whether you're a skilled person in this trade or that trade, you're like, that's my giftedness. And so this is. That's why I work in this area.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: And so personality profiles really go right along with that. But I love this, that personality profiles are really used to share how we rely on ourself.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: On our personality.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Because we hold on to.
We hold on to, like, well, God created me and he made me this way.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: And so I'm going to live out of this and I'm going to be that strong leader because that's the type of personality.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: So everywhere I go, I got to tell people the truth and I got to confront and I got to adjust and I got to take control. And it's like, no, your personality profile is actually narrowing down where you are relying on yourself instead of God.
And it was a whole different approach to the whole thing to start the whole class off and it was like, wow, this is different.
And it's been different ever since because I'm different. And what's really right, I. I still like have to process.
I've been different since I was nine years old. I just wasn't going back to our title. I just wasn't living loved.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: I didn't know what I had.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: And. And I want to encourage the listener to say, man, this is. This, this can take some time, you know? And he says in 1:45, he says to relax that, that God, God often has to untangle some things and in order for us to see him. And for me, this has been over six years of untangling. Right. For think about solitaris. I mean there's three years where he's just. With Jesus, there's a lot of things that had to be untangled. Wow. With legalism and law based living in pharisaical hypocrisy. And even if this process takes time, it's not because he's waiting to see how sincere you are. It's because he's working deep inside you to sort out those things that crowd him out of your heart and set your focus on your own efforts or your own failures. Yeah. Well said, Wayne.
[00:25:30] Speaker A: Well said. Thank you for even bringing that up. Because I'm not even two years into this journey and so I can look at even where I'm at. Just think, wow, I have a lot of things happening within this context. I shouldn't be discouraged at all or afraid at all because there's still a lot of untangling.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Right, right, right.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: So I love that. So thank you for your encouragement all the time, Carl. And this is always a joy to talk life.
