Let’s Talk Life, ep. 32 - Mad About You

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, fellow travelers. Welcome to let's Talk Life. Thanks for joining the discussion. And I know that you don't have a microphone yourself, but you're very much a part of the discussion. You can, as we can talk life with anyone and everyone that's around you. Wherever we're at, it's an amazing thing. That's what the good news is. Our aim, of course, is just to talk life and to cause a stirring within, create dialogue with God, with others, as we trust the Holy Spirit in us. So, Carl. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Hi. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Hey, Zach. [00:00:37] Speaker A: How you doing today? [00:00:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, it's, it's. It's talking life that is so freeing. Right. We. We show up and we just have to be ourselves. We have to try and pretend we got it all figured out or have all these. [00:00:52] Speaker A: For sure. [00:00:53] Speaker B: It's, it's. It's so amazing. Yes. Walking this out. Yes. [00:01:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm. I'm prepping this week for a breakfast that I'm sharing a word at. [00:01:05] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Sharing a little bit brief testimony in church service on Sunday. And I'm not stressed about any of it. It's not consuming my week. Right. Because, yeah, you want to bring something fresh and new, but also the spirit of God working in me. And every day is something fresh and new and it's like. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:28] Speaker A: Operating out of that place to trust. It's so beautiful. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Right? [00:01:33] Speaker A: It's, it's and it's. And it's so fun. Oh, life is just so much more fun. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Okay, so you were in that church for 20 some years and did you ever think as God thinks. Think of God as playful? Did. Did you ever think of God as, as like winking or smiling? I know this is going to lead into our topic today. [00:01:56] Speaker A: No, no, no, definitely not. That's. I mean, I think all the time we would talk about how God had. Has a sense of humor maybe, but it was never like a relational aspect. I'm not sure. I just. I never really grabbed hold of it, like, like to him winking at it. No. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:15] Speaker A: I haven't. [00:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah, me and. Me neither. Never, Never look at as God as playful. Just. No, he's not playful. He's holy and righteous and, And I keep sinning and he's gonna get me. [00:02:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:02:26] Speaker B: You know, he's out to get me and he's frustrated with me and mad at me and all those things. [00:02:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And what that really is, the, the true thing that's talking is really just our shame. Yes. And. [00:02:37] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:02:38] Speaker A: So we're, we're trying to Trying to hide and cover up and pretend. And so we're actually afraid of God because of. Boy, look at what I've done. Look at who I've hurt or look at who's hurt me and how it's affected me. And I'm just. I'm soaking up all this like I'm a sponge for shame. And. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Wow. Right. [00:02:57] Speaker A: And it's amazing when. When I can step. Step into realizing that, no, I don't have to live in that shame. That's not who I am. [00:03:03] Speaker B: No. [00:03:04] Speaker A: It changes everything. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Right. Right. So it's not. It's not actually God that. It's. It's ourselves. Right. Like you said, it's. It's. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:13] Speaker B: It clouded you. A veiled. You know that second Corinthians 3 passage about that veil. So the veil of shame no longer Moses veil. So it's a veil of shame that I'm seeing God and I'm seeing myself through. And, and it's actually when that veil is. So, so how do we take the veil off? Well, it's through vulnerability, through trusting God and others. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:34] Speaker B: With who I really am. And then it's like freedom. It's fun. It's like you can see God is playful that, that it's like he's how. As he's connecting, you know, as. As people, as he's moving all these parts and all we see is right now. And it's like, yeah, God, you're so amazing. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Right? So good. And I've heard from quite a few people. I get this question a lot from people like, have you watched the Chosen? [00:03:58] Speaker B: And I'm always like, no, yeah, same. [00:04:00] Speaker A: I haven't. I'm sorry. But so many people that have told me about the Chosen all say that they. It really gave them a different perspective about Jesus in the way that he just casually and, and lovingly and playfully, like you're saying, encountered with. With his disciples and walked and did life with people. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:23] Speaker A: And so props to them for. For getting that across. I think that's a good point to really make. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Right. That's right. And so I'm wearing my Wilder Heart shirt real quick just to get a plug in for a future trip to. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:38] Speaker B: To Seattle and also the. The Wild of heart we're doing for pastors in West Michigan in October. And. And so anyway, so just. Just real excited about living this wholehearted journey. So I'm wearing this shirt as a reminder of this new heart that God's given us and this new name that he. [00:04:59] Speaker A: So good, good stuff. I'm excited about everything that God has us on. I'm always, it's always a joy just to connect with you every week and just talk life. And it's, it's always so much bigger than just this little bit of recording. But today we're, we're jumping in right to. I just throwing out this quote from Paul Ellis. I got this out of one of his commentaries. He says, God is not mad at you, he's mad about you. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Wow. [00:05:31] Speaker A: So just right off the bat, I mean, what does that make you think, Carl, and, and feel? [00:05:38] Speaker B: Is it true? Like really, you know, in, in God is not right. [00:05:45] Speaker A: You. [00:05:47] Speaker B: He's mad about you. I mean, you. Yeah, instantly verses from the Old Testament of God's love for Israel. [00:05:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Of just, of just his. His covenant love. And so, so it's sort of like a. Okay, so if I'm in a covenant with God where, where he. Where Jesus is the mediator, right. So. So it's God who is, who is faithful, even when I'm faithless. And so there's this. Yeah. Guess what? It can be true. Right? It can be true as, as Christ the great Mediator. The propitiation is. Is, is. Is, you know, fulfilled or has fulfilled or is fulfilling everything that I couldn't do and that, that I failed to do. And. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe it is true. How about you, man? What do you think of. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. I mean, it really kind of flips everything upside down, you know, and not from recent days because this is, I think, how I've been operating and how I've been thinking and. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:49] Speaker A: Trusting. Right. For the last couple of years, but it's really just upside down thinking from anything that I ever thought. And I think that I say this all the time, I guess maybe is that theologically I, I would have always agreed with that and I would have loved that, but I wouldn't have brought. Put that into my message and challenged people with that because I would. I didn't fully understand it. I, I couldn't fully embrace and trust that. That was a reality for me personally. So it was very possible for me to equip that and, and train other people in that same. [00:07:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:23] Speaker A: Thinking. [00:07:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Just wasn't going to work. [00:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:28] Speaker A: So. But it has. I mean, for the last two years it has changed my approach to daily life in general and ministry life. I think it has for you too, right. The last five, six years as well. [00:07:42] Speaker B: And, and what I love, because you had said that you had read it something. And he loves me and, and I would. I Would. I would love for you to share that first, if you could. [00:07:54] Speaker A: Sure. [00:07:54] Speaker B: And then, and then. [00:07:56] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think that first of all, like the cut. Just. I'll throw this question out there, which is what we're kind of answering. I guess I already said it. How has this really changed our approach? [00:08:11] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:13] Speaker A: So, and, and when I, when I was even. Right when I finished typing that out, I was like right away gone back to he loves me. The book that we, that we went through. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:25] Speaker A: Together. And I've gone through it. I'm still going through it with another group as well. And I think he loves me book. It really is the message that answers that question for me. It's because equipping men with the message of God's love, it doesn't seem relatable. It doesn't seem like. No, that's, you know, like men, we want to give us a good challenge. Give us, you know, scream in our face and get in our face and tell us what we need. [00:08:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:08:51] Speaker A: To do in order to. And, and what we actually are asking, this is really what we're saying by saying that is connect me with me exactly where I'm at and, and keep, keep like, I don't know, condemning me and. [00:09:04] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:09:04] Speaker A: Hit me over the head. But what we really want and what we really need and what's really going to change us is actually to know that I'm loved. And I think the reason why it's oftentimes pushed off is just because men especially just they think it's almost too pansy or whatever they want to say about it. I don't know. But this is, this is what he says. And the introduction to the book, I think, is one of my favorite sections. He says, he says the same thing. I realize a book about God's love seems so obvious that most people would rather plow onto seemingly more engaging subjects. Things like the New Testament church models more effective ways to pray or keys to living in God's will. God's love, he says, seems like Christianity 101 to most people. [00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:55] Speaker A: They say let's get on to deeper things. But he says there is nothing deeper. [00:10:04] Speaker B: That's right. [00:10:04] Speaker A: Than God's love. [00:10:05] Speaker B: That's right. [00:10:06] Speaker A: Nothing deeper. [00:10:08] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. [00:10:09] Speaker A: Mind boggling stuff, right? [00:10:10] Speaker B: Because we think it's like elementary. So we need, we need, we need to move on. [00:10:15] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:16] Speaker B: So here's a quote for you, man. And even before we answer those questions, this is from a pastor, right? A pastor who's 76 years old. He's, he's ministered his whole life. And this is his quote. [00:10:29] Speaker A: Sure. [00:10:29] Speaker B: I still have not fully or largely believed that God really loves me and I can trust him fully. I know these things in my head, but I don't think I absorbed them. So here's the. The brutal honesty and vulnerability of. Of a man who has preached the gospel, who has. Who has shared the gospel of Jesus, that he died, was buried, and rose again. Believe in him and you may be saved. Right. So that's the gospel. And he said, I'm looking back at my life and say I still have not fully or largely believe that God really loves me and I can trust him for it. So I think that's a beautiful quote. [00:11:11] Speaker A: Wow. It is. It takes me back to even a song that I wrote. Like, I can't even think of every part of the song, but the biggest part, the verse, the. That I started with and kind of grew into was me proclaiming God, you don't have all. You don't have all of me. And why doesn't he have all of me? I mean, even at that time, I knew it's because I'm not allowing you to. But I was still in this backward mindset to thinking that it was me that had to give something in order to receive and have from God. And what I was really missing was actually the receiving of God's love. And the receiving of God's grace comes right along with receiving his love. And yeah, we can't accept that. We can't believe that about ourselves because we think that we're too wicked. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:07] Speaker A: We've done too many bad things. And so we just can't possibly accept that this is the reality. But it's so true. It really does change everything about life and ministry altogether. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah, man, that's, that's, that's a great. That's a great, brutal, honest comment that I think a lot of. A lot of us can identify with. Like, like when we just. When we stop. When we stop with the busyness of life or the busyness of pastoring or the busyness of whatever and just sit in this answer, God, do you really love me? You know? You know, and, and so I think that that's. God's mad about us, really. Like, he's mad about me, you know? And how did that thinking change our approach to daily life and ministry? I don't know if you. I mean, I don't know if you want to take a crack at that first. What has it done for you? [00:13:04] Speaker A: Well, I mean, it's. It's changed Everything. I mean, I just. I just. Even coming off of what you just said, it's like moving from self effort and human effort. I call it the flesh, you know, that's what it is. [00:13:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And. [00:13:19] Speaker A: And moving into this trust that we continually come back to and talk about, like, that step is monumental. Like, it's. [00:13:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:29] Speaker A: Huge. So there's. There, there can be, and there. There is, I think, a lot of frustration when you lived most of your life or half of your life, and you didn't understand this. And it's like you want to be mad at God. Like, why didn't you tell me this? And God is like, well, this has been the message from day one. And. And so. So then you want to get mad at other people. It's like, why didn't I hear this when I went to church growing up? Why didn't I hear this when I went to Bible college? You know, like, all these different things, but the reality is it's freedom, healing, and victory is really what it brought. Those. Those are. Those are the three words that the Life center uses. And I continue to just go back to them because I. I've never felt free. I've never felt healed. I always felt like there was something still. [00:14:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:29] Speaker A: Like, wrong with me. Right. Like I. I couldn't really identify. And I. And I'll say that in these last couple of years, you know, I would say that even in the last couple of months, it's not like just because I stepped into it, like, all sudden, boom, healed, all done. [00:14:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:45] Speaker A: It's like. No, there's this. It is such a journey of actually experiencing and realizing the trauma and the things that are. That are there that you didn't even realize were affecting you. And those things come out over time. Right. It doesn't just happen because you prayed a prayer. The beginning point may be that prayer, but it's a journey. And so I'm not sure if I'm even answering the question. [00:15:13] Speaker B: You got me spinning, man. My head spinning. What were the three words? Freedom. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Freedom, healing and victory. [00:15:20] Speaker B: Is it. Isn't that what we all want? Like, I mean, John Elridge used. Yeah. I mean, he would probably sum that all that up into one word, like restoration. Right. Restoration of the masculine heart. [00:15:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:31] Speaker B: You know, for. For men. [00:15:33] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:15:35] Speaker B: Healing. You know, that's the. The healing of Jesus into the. The dark, the hardest parts of our life. Or, you know, you think about freedom and victory is actually living it out. So it's not just the past being forgiven or it's also present. You know, it's, it's, it's. [00:15:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:54] Speaker B: Life giving. [00:15:56] Speaker A: Right. Well, I mean, it, it just opens up, like, when I think about ministry. [00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:01] Speaker A: It just opens up so much more effectiveness in my ability to actually bring freedom and healing and victory into anybody else's life better than I've ever been able to before. My. I was always trying to direct them. [00:16:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:15] Speaker A: You know, to God and to His Word. But now it's like, it's hard to put into a simple context. You know, just. It started for me with that, that prayer out of Ephesians, God, give me a spirit of wisdom and revelation that I may know you. And I think, I think that really, I probably would have prayed that prayer or, you know, took that passage and been excited about it in the past, but it was always a prayer for what I was already involved in. God. God is going to stir in this thing. God is going to guide me in my passions and what I'm doing for Him. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Ye. [00:16:52] Speaker A: And when I really hit me that it says the reason for this is to know him not to be a better preacher or to be better in anything. It's just to be better walking with him and walking out of trust and who I am in him. It really, that's really what changes everything. And it's only the Holy Spirit that can do it. So that's the spirit of wisdom and revelation. It is only by His Spirit that is going to allow us to even see that and recognize it. So that's why I continue to pray that over other people. [00:17:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:27] Speaker A: Because that's the avenue. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Race in Jesus is not means to an end. It is the end. Like, it is everything. [00:17:34] Speaker A: Like it's life. Yes. [00:17:37] Speaker B: Like, he's not helping us do something. He's. He's. He is everything. And, and so how is that thinking change our approach? Like freedom, freeing, like joy, peace. And. And I think that that quote from the pastor and again, just, just in conversations with other pastors where there's conflict and there's power and there's control and there's vision and there's all these things that we've been like, oh, that's awesome. [00:18:07] Speaker A: Right? [00:18:07] Speaker B: And it's like, no. Like, no, that's. Can we just sit in this. That Jesus loves me. Like, like, if I was to. By the way, if I'm ever going to try and start a church, I want you to whack me in the head with a board and say, what are you doing? Jesus already started. [00:18:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:24] Speaker B: And so just this idea that if I started a church and I put on the sign, we're loved. Like, like, like people would be like, what are you doing? We need to do something. Said, no, no, no, no. We need to understand. [00:18:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:41] Speaker B: What God's love in my life look like before we can do anything. Before you do anything. [00:18:47] Speaker A: Oh, and if it takes 10 years. [00:18:49] Speaker B: It'S going to take 10 years to just learn. [00:18:52] Speaker A: Sure. [00:18:53] Speaker B: God is mad about you. God. God loves you completely right now. Right now. You fix your life or get it together. Hey, he loves you right now, right? [00:19:05] Speaker A: Yes. It's. It's so good to every single person. Like, even the person that rebels and hates and doesn't receive his love. [00:19:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:17] Speaker A: He still loves them. [00:19:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:19] Speaker A: His love is still there for them. [00:19:21] Speaker B: And while they were right, Christ died for them. [00:19:24] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not. It's not this broad, you know, love that. That means nothing. It's kind of like, like the, you know, everybody's a winner, which kind of makes it like, well, so nobody's a winner. You know, it's that. That's the. That's not what God's love is like. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:41] Speaker A: His love is so. Is intimate and it's personal and it's meaningful and it changes you to the core. [00:19:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:50] Speaker A: It's amazing. [00:19:51] Speaker B: For example, great point. Paul literally says that God has not withheld his testimony from you. That, that he gave you food, he gave you joy. He gave, like, he gave you these things even though you didn't know him. Like, he's like, he's the fulfillment. He's the giver of all things. Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:11] Speaker A: Wow. [00:20:13] Speaker B: And so I'm no longer. I'm no longer striving to prove I'm worthy of his love, and I am no longer striving to earn his love. And that has changed everything. [00:20:25] Speaker A: Oh, man. And I have a guy that's on our call that we're going through this, this book. He loves me. And he still continues to be like, I don't. I don't understand this. I'm still afraid of this. And I don't. You know, I just texted him even before we started recording because I said, listen, just read. Go back to the introduction and read the introduction in the first chapter. But listen, this is just more out of the introduction. It's so incredible. He says, you know, we're missing this so often. We don't grasp God's love. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Because religious tradition has so instilled in us this mistaken notion that God's love is something that we earn. So, like, he. What he's saying is that moving from this Performance based place into a deeply rooted relationship with the Father. And his affection for us is no small transition. It's like because we've been so like intertwined in our brains and is this mess of, okay, this is who I am in Christ, but then I also need to do these things. And if you don't, you know, and live up to these standards, then this is. And so there's just this intertwining of this false idea and then also our identity. And we're trying to figure it out. And I didn't get the identity part of so many passages. I didn't get the identity part. I, I just got the challenge. [00:21:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:48] Speaker A: So just for, for, for example, I'll even go to like first Timothy. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:54] Speaker A: This is chapter six. And I'll just simplify it by going to verse 12. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:59] Speaker A: I underlined only the first, the first few words of verse 12. And it says, fight the good fight of the faith. That was it. I stopped. I didn't underline any further than that. [00:22:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:10] Speaker A: But what, what comes, what comes after is, is my identity. [00:22:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:15] Speaker A: So I only, I only grabbed hold of the challenge. That's oftentimes what we want. [00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:19] Speaker A: But I didn't see that the very next words are this. Take hold of the eternal life. Right, the eternal life which I have. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:28] Speaker A: So rest in this, which you already hold on to this stand on this. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Because you have eternal life and so you can fight the good fight. There is a fight, but the fight is really to stay free. It's not a fight to be free. Oh, it's a fight to stay free in our thinking. Yeah, completely. [00:22:49] Speaker B: Because in our flesh we want to be self reliant, self sufficient, and so we can fall back into the old fleshly patterns, whatever it looks like for each person. And it's like, man, you gotta. There is a fight, but it's not a fight for. It's a fight from. Right. It's a fight from our new position. It's a fight from our identity. It's, it's. Yeah. Oh, it's so good because it's all there. But, but again, it's. How, how am I reading it right? Am I reading it through that shame like you said? [00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Right. It really does change everything. And so praise God for, for his revelation and, and it's so amazing. God loves the world and I always took that too as just kind of this, this broad thing. But he doesn't really love me. [00:23:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:38] Speaker A: So that's what I've stepped into these last couple years. Is, yeah, God doesn't just love me, he actually, he likes me. And that actually brings it to a more relational understanding of, wow, I like that. And the more that I've rested in that, the more that it's actually brought great freedom, healing and victory in my life. Just receive his love. [00:24:01] Speaker B: That's right. [00:24:02] Speaker A: It really is simple. The gospel is very simple. Yeah. The life aspect of it all can be complicated and difficult, but it's also mostly makes it complicated and difficult. He's made it easy. So I'll just close with this last little thing from the introduction I wish I have highlighted. He says the pole of religion can be far stronger than the freedom of relationship. So just going back to that freedom thing. Yeah. The pull of religion can be far stronger than the freedom of relationship. But we are free in Christ indeed. Wow. Hallelujah.