Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello fellow travelers. Welcome to let's Talk Life.
Thanks for joining us today. We're delighted to have you tune in our prayers of course, that you're moved by what we are talking about and you're able to talk life with those around you. It's another week. Episode 33 we're calling it one anothering.
So Carl, how you doing this week?
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Hey, thanks for the, thanks for the greeting. Yeah, and I do like how you said that. It's like we just have a camera on, but we're just talking like we always talk.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: And, and that's, that's Jesus's life where we can talk about anything and everything and he's in it all.
[00:00:44] Speaker C: Right.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: He's in it all.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: Yeah. It's so beautiful. And like, yeah, there's, there's aspects to even this that we're talking about that I don't really know.
I don't know the answer. I don't know how to even explain this or say this or there are words that I don't like and I don't know how else to explain it other than using the words that I don't like. And so it's like how do we get this message across?
And that's all part of the journey and that's kind of what's exciting about it too.
So. But one anothering, first of all, Wayne Jacobson, I think one of our favorite authors.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: I mean I, I'm not even going to say one of. I think he's just my favorite author.
Decided to throw all you other authors under the bus. But it's just a reality.
He's just so ministered to me in his writing.
And then we of course even have like this a personal connection to him, which is just neat.
Not that I've utilized that, but just the fact that I have, that is so amazing and something that I've never experienced before in all of my life that an author is just available and text me anytime he says to me. And I'm like, so he's really dialed into this one anothering thing. It's not just something he writes about, it's his life.
And so I so love that. And I just want to throw this out there too because Carl, you've really impacted me.
I think first of all, you were really impacted by his writings and the way that you've impacted me. Before I even got into his stuff, I saw some of this coming out in you.
So like here are just a few phrases that, that I've implemented. I saw in you that I've implemented myself because I've been learning them. But meeting people right where they're at, that's how I feel like you did for me. Leading with vulnerability, which I feel like is what you do and did with me. Asking questions and giving space for me to answer, you know, not.
Not being I'm gonna fix you mentality, but just creating that space for dialogue and just talk about how that makes you feel or where you at with that. And so I think that so much. As parents, as leaders, we think our job is always to save people and to fix people. And the reality is Jesus does the saving.
Jesus does the fixing, and our job really is to trust in him.
[00:03:15] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: No, that's.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: I love those three things because those are all three things that. That I never would have done as. As a. As a pastor of a church where you care about numbers and you care about this because it's. It's. You can't leave a vulnerability because if you have a struggle or if you have a weakness or if you made a mistake or if you failed, you can lose your job, you can lose your house, you can lose everything.
And. And so then. Or. Or. Or people won't come, or people won't respect you, which leads to the other one. Like, you don't ask questions because you're given all the answers.
So it's. So think about this. It's like. It's like we don't even need Jesus, you know, we just need the pastor to tell us. And. Yeah, and so we don't equip to walk by the spirit.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: We.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: We train people that just come back every Sunday, you know, relying on the pastor, not relying on the Holy Spirit. And then the third thing. Meet where you are.
Yeah. The only thing we try to do is fix people. Like, it's. It's like we don't know what it's like to come alongside. We don't know what it's like to just encourage. We just know what it's like to judge. We know what it's like to just fix. And it's like, man, this isn't. We're not. We're not like bathroom sinks that need fixing. You know, we're. We're. We're people in the image of God who need loved to be loved, you know?
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: So I don't know if that helps you, Ben, but that's. That's what I. What I hear there is like, that's all the opposite things I would have done.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: Totally. And. And I totally resonate with that, too, and agree.
It was like, yeah, you always.
We always had the answer. I love how you stated that. We always had the answer. So we didn't ask you questions. I.
I didn't feel like I could even ask the question that was really on my heart. All through the years, like, I thought that I was within the. The greatest and. And that it could ever be. Like, this is. These are the greatest days of my life. How. How could I even ask the question, where is the life? Yeah, I couldn't even ask the question of myself or of anybody around me because I thought, no, I'm in it. I'm doing it. Like, this is.
This is supposed to be the life. Right? The. The gospel is the life, and we're preaching the gospel.
[00:05:31] Speaker C: It's.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: But then why then do I still feel so empty?
And so it is. It's a crazy, wild journey.
But we've just been so conditioned, I think, to. To think that, like, I just think about parenting. I just had this conversation with somebody this week.
Like, you know, his kids are grown, but they're still at home.
And, like, he struggles with laziness. And just, like, they're not out and doing. And it's like. But they're in my home, and I feel like they should be doing it. And it's like, if they're not out there doing this, I feel kind of like a failure. Like, I didn't equip them. Right. And then. But then I can't also just stand to have them at home. And so there's this need, this feeling inside of us that we need to control and make them do what they need to do.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: Right.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: And that's one probably, in parenting and his family relationships, that's probably where we really need to learn to trust more than anywhere else.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Right?
[00:06:34] Speaker C: Right.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: And I don't know how you feel about that, because you have teenagers, too, that kind of, you know, they have a mind of their own. Like, what do you do?
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Well, sure. And. And I think. Great question. And. And God was showing me something, you know, months ago where I'm sitting there thinking, wait a minute, God's telling me, carl, you're not to. You're not to discipline them in the ways of the Lord to look like you. Like. In other words, they're not. They're not created to be in my image. They're created to be in the image of Jesus.
And so it's kind of like, okay, so maybe there's things that they don't do that I wish they would have done. Well, Is that like from Jesus or is that just Carl in the flesh?
[00:07:14] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: So that I can puff up and say, oh, look how good our kids are. And it's like, man, there's just so much of our life that's the old fleshly worldly patterns of competition and jealousy and 100%, you know that, that I'm a great dad because they got straight A's. Well, what happens when they struggle with a certain class and they fail?
[00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Are they still not fully loved by God?
Is that somehow I'm not a good enough dad? And so this, this really has to do with everything, doesn't it? Exactly. It does.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Life, 100%. Totally. Yeah. Because I think what kept me in that bondage and what kept me even like trying to control even like your own kids lives and what, what you want them to do, yet it comes all out of like, I don't feel like I know who I am and I don't want my identity to be tainted or whatever. And so we're trying to. And you, you probably understand this 100 even just being, you know, a p. A PK, right. A preacher's.
And we, we both grew up in a, in a very ministry family. So it was like, I think it was different for me compared to you, but still, it's like we, there's still this expectation and this look because we went to a church where everybody knew that your grandfather was a pastor. And like you're all under this umbrella of you should look and, and act and be in a certain way.
So yes, to step away from that and actually to learn to trust. And it's interesting because it's through, I think the heartbreak, I think it's through pain, I think it's through the most difficult things that I had to go through in life that actually opened the door for me to parent differently.
So going through divorce.
[00:09:00] Speaker C: Right.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: And as my kids got to be of age where they could make a decision on their own and had their mind of their own, it was like I didn't, I wasn't able to with my own kids. Just. I'm going to draw the line and this is, this is where it's at. I'm gonna have to gavel in my hand and I'm gonna, I can't do that with them because they could just choose to. Well, I don't have to live here. And that's true. They didn't.
So I couldn't adopt that same mentality that I really even wanted to. And it was actually a blessing in disguise, which is just really neat how God provided even through heartbreak and pain.
And to see my kids come kind of full circle around to where, like, specifically my oldest, you know, he's. Johnny was kind of disillusioned with church, but I was, I was.
But I wasn't sharing that. I wasn't vulnerable about that. And so he was struggling because I was struggling. And we're all struggling. Right. And. But because there wasn't that room for vulnerability and realness, it was like we just want to run away from it all.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: So I, I totally resonate with where he was at, because it's really kind of where I was at. But to see him come full circle around to, like, I think, and I think you said this one, sometimes it's like you move away and your relationships are actually stronger. And I think that's the reality.
[00:10:22] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: Like, the love and the respect that you have for each other is so much greater.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: That's interesting.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: Just really exciting to see that kind of stuff.
So.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: And I could just say that, you know, when it comes to trusting God, it's, it's, it's really saying, here, here's. Here's what I want, God, but I'm. I'm giving them to you. I'm entrusting them to you for, for whatever path you have for them. I mean, think about this. We talk about. We talk about the, the story in Luke of the prodigal dad. I mean, the prodigal son is usually what we call it. It's really the loving father. Right. As Wayne Jacobson wrote, it's really the problem father.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: Did he not have expectations for both of his sons? Like, did he not have a desire for his. For his sons?
And so we look at just things such as small angle of just what's happening today.
[00:11:17] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: And saying, hey, God, I want to see it from your perspective. I'm just going to trust you right now.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: I think that when we don't preach Jesus. Sorry, I don't like the word preach when I'm not living Jesus's life.
Then. Then it's a Sunday morning thing and it's a performance thing and it's a show. And so then you have disillusioned pastors, kids saying, well, what's real? What's real? Because it's, it's all. It's all like this performance, and it's all about Sunday morning, and it's all about looking good or behaving good or it's all about.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Being on a stage or being under a microscope or A globe, whatever you want to call it. And, and, but when Christ is life, you. You can give space for people to wrestle with God themselves and then you don't have to fix them and you don't have to solve everything or know every answer now. And it's just a different way to live.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: It is, it is completely.
And, and I, I recognize that because there are, there are situations and things that people start sharing and I'm like, I don't know the answer to.
[00:12:26] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: The situation you're in.
[00:12:28] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: But my one anothering with them.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: Ministers to them so much deeper.
[00:12:35] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Than me having all the answers.
[00:12:38] Speaker C: Right. Right.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: And I don't, I don't think that people necessarily come because they expect you to have all the answers.
They just want you to be available.
[00:12:49] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: And so I'll, I'll. I have to look for it here on my desk so I get the right word. But I shared this with you a little bit.
[00:12:58] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Already about accountability. We're just talking about words that we don't like and accountability.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: Okay, but can, Can I use. Can I go first?
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah, go.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Okay.
I can't find it in scripture where we're supposed to be committed to the church.
Sorry. Can't find it. God. God's committed to us.
God is faithful to us. But I can't find it. Anyway.
[00:13:22] Speaker A: Go ahead.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: What was your word that you say?
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Accountability.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: Being accountable. Yeah. So I love, I love. And I don't even remember where it had to been Wayne Jacobson stuff because he seems like you heard it too. But I don't know.
Accessibility is really what we.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: That's not accountability.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: So that our, our deepest need as, as human beings really is to be known.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:13:47] Speaker A: And that's exactly what we have in Christ, is that no matter what, even like this is the reality. Go back to scripture. And he says that even in our deepest and darkest, in our sinful state.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: Right.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: God. God loved us.
And so that, that's just that alone is really amazing because now that I'm in Christ, we. Or maybe I lead somebody into Christ, then we like to put all these things on top of them to make them feel like they're not loved unless they do these things. But yet God loved you when you were a sinner.
And it's just so backward in all of our thinking. And so. Yeah.
The thing that he goes to next in this book that I got the word one anothering from, it's Wayne Jacobson with his brother Clay.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Authentic relationships is what it's called.
Discovering discover the lost art of one anothering. And it really is kind of a lost art. I just, I even love the subtitle. But he says that one another and begins on the inside.
And I just, I really like, love that because he's coming from John 13.
Jesus is given. He says a new command. That's another word that I've struggled with.
So I'll just be real about that.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:09] Speaker A: But I don't think it's a command like we think of a command. I'll just up front say that. But he says to love one another. That's where he's getting this one one another. And there are seven verses or something out of this book that he pulls that talks about one anothering. But specifically this verse is saying as I have loved you, so love one another.
And so until we can receive God's love, we'll never really be able to love anybody else.
And that's really the beginning point of it all. And so I love how he.
We always have like flesh takes over.
[00:15:44] Speaker C: Right.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: Flesh is just human effort. It's self reliance. It's us just trying to do it on our own.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: And I love just his. His vulnerability and sharing a little story about being at the airport.
He's two hours early.
So he sits down, he opens a book. And he just wants to have this quiet time. And it's noisy, it's annoying. Kids are crying, kids are running. You know, just nothing. Nothing.
Yes. Yeah, probably.
And.
And so he's really getting frustrated with people.
And then it just kind of hits him.
And I think this is kind of his transformation into one anothering. As he recognizes this lady in the. With a child is waiting for this. Father and husband coming home from the military had been overseas and. And it actually kind of brought tears to his eyes when they reunited.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: And just. And he saw a story after story just taking place right in front of him.
[00:16:45] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: And this is what he says in the book. I ceased to view the crowd as a faceless mass of humanity.
And I instead saw them as individuals with unfolding stories.
And he goes on to say that is how Jesus loves.
It's. It's very personal and it's very individual.
And it is like, I equate it to. To driving. Especially driving down in Florida. People are terrible drivers and you can get so angry at everybody.
But I've. I've really learned more and more to operate out of just rest and to be like, I don't need to be the first one at the next red light. It's the only place that's going to get you to go fast is the next red light faster.
And so I just love how that equates to just my, my life in Christ. Like I don't need to control things in my own life. I don't need to control things in other people's lives. I can just rest.
And me being at rest helps me to, just like you saying, not see this massive humanity that's annoying and making me angry. Instead, I'm looking at them all as individuals, as people that have needs themselves and that they need love, just like I need love.
And so just a, a whole different way.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: To see things. And I just, I really love that perspective.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: And, and he also makes a distinction between something else.
[00:18:11] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: About loving one another as opposed to loving everyone.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, he gets into that. Let me see where I found that.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: I thought that was really good.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: It is, it's. It's such a good.
Yeah. He didn't tell his followers to love everyone, but simply the people God put before them.
And that really goes back to what I began with. And your ministry. And what was his ministry like impacting you? And then your ministry impacting me is that you just created, created space even for me and asked questions and just let me process things and weren't trying to control and tell me where to go and what to do. It was just let God do to guiding and, and that's. That can only happen. This is what he says.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: This kind of love doesn't happen in mass.
No, it happens one on one or in small groups. Yeah, that's, that's the reality.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: And he brings up great points because Jesus, we again, we think of Jesus, you know, Sermon on the Mount, all these people, and yet most of the interactions with the people are small groups or one on one.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: You know, just a few people.
Well, and it's like that's the impact.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: So good. Right?
It is the impact. I mean, Jesus himself, I mean, who, who is the greater teacher than any other human being that walked the earth? It was Jesus.
[00:19:38] Speaker C: Right.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: And he himself only had his 12 people. And even of the 12, he had his three that were the closest. And so it's, it's very evident that that's exactly the, the route Right. To go.
[00:19:52] Speaker C: Right.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: And so it's, it's really exciting. Like I always have the opportunity every week to connect with a business guy and a pastor and we're just get together and we just talk.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: What does this look like? How do we.
[00:20:03] Speaker C: Right.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: How do we function As a church. And the real church is just, just what we're talking about. Just one anothering. Just being, being together.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And this is so important too, because it's, it's like, oh, I need to go find. I need to go find people and say, no, no, no. Who's in your life right now? Like, who's God? Like, who's God bringing about right now?
You know, because we think, oh, I need to go. I need to go there. I need to go there. You know, like Dan Stone wrote and the rest of the gospel, he says, you know, when, when all I knew was that Jesus died for my sins, I had to go knocking on everyone's door to tell them. But once I realized that Christ is my life, that everywhere I went, people saw.
I mean, yeah.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Oh, I love that, man. There's. There's so many resources that we've already been through that have been so earth shaking and part of me just wants to like, don't give me any more books. I just need to review all these ones because there's so much.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: For me to process and to go through.
And so it is exciting. It's. It's been really neat to just like there's been an element of things have almost died.
Right. Like, I connected with the life Center. I talked to Teresa for a little bit up there in Michigan and she said, yeah, just expect like summertime, your counseling is just going to dwindle.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Gotcha.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: It's like, okay. And then I've been driving Uber and it was like I went out on Friday night and I drove for half an hour and I got. There was zero. There was nothing. And I was just like, this is so unusual.
[00:21:41] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: And so I felt like there were just these feelings inside of like anxiety and fear of like, okay, guy, like, how are we going to pay bills if. If these things aren't happening? And God continued to say, trust me. Yeah, trust me.
[00:21:57] Speaker C: And.
[00:21:58] Speaker A: And he's provided in the last two months. He's provided in just amazing ways that I can't even explain.
There is no explanation other than I've just been given the opportunity to just one another with people and they've caught the vision and they've chosen to support me and it's.
[00:22:15] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: It's not something I could have made up.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: You know, I couldn't have convinced them on my own. It's. It's only the work of God. That's what's been so exciting to see. And so that, that gives you, like, going forward, I know that I can trust and I don't need to be afraid.
And so I appreciate your one anothering with me and then I've been able to then one another with other people.
That's really the makeup of, of what the ministry is.
And so we're all ministers, we're all preachers and sometimes, sometimes we even use words when we preach but it's just coming to, coming together one anothering. So we close out our time I guess with that. Unless you got another word of wisdom Carl, that's perfect.
Amen.
