Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, fellow travelers. Welcome to let's Talk Life.
Thanks for joining today.
We're delighted that you're tuning in, and our prayers, of course, that you are able to talk life, maybe catch some bits of wisdom and things to talk about and talk life with other people around you.
Today I have the privilege of talking life with Pastor Brett, Brett Brooks. And Carl's not able to join us this week. He's off across the country in Washington. And so we'll hear a bit about that, I'm sure, next week.
And. But our lives, Pastor Brad and my life collided last year, almost a year ago.
Next month it will be, I believe.
And our mutual friend and pastor, Pastor Frank Friedman, is who kind of connected us, but I happen to be moving to Florida, being just within a half an hour away from his ministry. And so it's been neat to see how God has connected us. And he's the pastor. Pastor Brett is the pastor of Coastal Community Church here in Venice, Florida.
That's where my office is set up, right above his office at the Coworks Building. So it's pretty cool. We get to do life together. We get to talk life together.
So here we are, my friends, church. We're here to talk life, but I want to talk church to start with. Like, church has been for you, smooth sailing, right? No, it's been perfect. You've got it all figured out.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: That's.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: That's why I have you here.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: No hurricanes at all.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
If only that was the truth, right?
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: So, Brett, what do you want to say? I guess to start off, introduce yourself, maybe better than I can.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you know, I've been a believer since I was 10, so. Been a long time. And went a lot of years, probably close to 20 years without really understanding Christ as life.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Maybe having a little bit of an understanding of grace. But, you know, there's a difference between understanding grace and understanding life. There's kind of two sides. Two different sides of the same coin. Yeah. And a lot of times we never turn the coin over.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: You know, we get one side, and we kind of count on that to. To take us through, but.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: This whole life thing happened to me when I was in my 30s. Then. Okay. And after being a believer for some 20 years.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: So. Yeah. I grew up in Indiana, moved to Florida when I was 12.
Was part of a denominational church that was all about law, all about doing, all about performance.
Yeah. And was able to plug into a Bible church in my 20s.
My oldest son was not even a year old yet. Don and I were just looking for something different than what we have been taught.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: And so we found a church that understood grace.
And so it's been a journey from my early 20s, and, you know, I'm in my 60s now, so.
But it's been crazy. You know, it's a journey.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: It's a journey for every single one of us.
I love. So you've been preaching the last, I don't know, a few weeks on Ephesians, going through the book of Ephesians. It's near and dear, as you know, to my heart. And I've shared this, and it's part of. It's really my testimony. Yeah. Because it's. God's really, really gripping me with his goodness, his grace, giving me that spirit of wisdom and revelation that you find in Ephesians chapter 1, where Paul is praying for the church. And so I began to pray that prayer, and it's kind of what stirred in me.
And when you were preaching, even on Sunday this last week, you had kind of shared a little bit about your journey.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: Of really kind of stepping out of ministry because you felt like you were just. You weren't doing it for the right reason.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: But before we even get into that, how do you see us? So Ephesians 1:17 says that God, would you give the spirit of wisdom and revelation that we may know you and that. That knowing of him.
How do you see us as missing that knowing in that revelation from that prayer?
[00:04:21] Speaker B: Well, you know, I think as human beings, or maybe better said, human doings, we're all about doing and for acceptance or security. And we're very cautious.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: About exposing our hearts, about letting people see who we really are. Yeah. You know, all the crud that's deep down within, you know.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: And so we put on this facade in that. And I think the revelation that hit me, I know when I was, you know, in my early 30s, was that revelation that he really wants to know me and not just know.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: You know, what I want him to know.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: You know, and that. That there has to be at some point time, this exposure of this vulnerability, this peeling back of the surface and allowing him to see. So. Yeah. Revelation. And I think it's. I think. I think sometimes it's easier for women than it is for men because we don't want to talk about what's going on inside. Sure. We want to put on that facade that we're doing everything right. And.
And everything looks good. And we don't want to admit that we're struggling with anything.
And I know if it wasn't for my bride, that I would have no clue about relationship.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: And, you know, we see in Genesis where.
Where God walked with Adam and Eve in the coolness of the evening, hand in hand, talking with him. And that we see that he created us for that relationship and for that vulnerability with him. And even when he cries out to Adam, Adam, where are you?
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: And Adam hides himself from him. You know, it just exposes kind of where we are. Right. That we don't want people to see the.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: The ugliness.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: The doubt, the. The different things that are going on with it. So this spirit of wisdom, praying for this. This revelation of him, praying this. About this knowledge that goes both ways, I think is. Is critical. It's.
It. It goes to Romans, chapter 12. Right. Offering our bodies a living sacrifice, holding. Pleasing to him. And that's where we really find worship.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: So worship is not singing on Sunday.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: Right?
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Fifteen minutes.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: Or even during the week. Worship is everything that I do, everything that I say, how. How I'm living, what I'm living in.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: You know, that's the. The whole worship part. So this whole spirit of wisdom, this revelation, he desires to know us.
[00:07:05] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: And he does know us. Right, Right.
But he desires for us to know him. He wants us to know how much we're loved. Yeah. And I think where sometimes we push him away.
Right. Because of what's going on inside. I'll share them.
Right.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I think aside from Ephesians, is the one prayer in Ephesians that really got me on a path.
But then opening up the cure and reading about these masks that we put on, and that's what you're saying. Like men especially. But. But so many. I mean, all people have a mask of some sort that they're wearing and they're not really being real with themselves and they're. We've been hurt by other people, so we can't trust other people.
We sometimes even blame God. And so we feel like we can't trust God. And so there's all this. This journey really, that we're going through and to be able to take off that mask and enter into a room with people that are walking the same path and just being real.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: And.
And you can finally break down and share all of your garbage, and they can all still love you.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: And. And some key. It's an amazing place to be.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: You know, I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and one of the phrases that we would say Just be real, man. Just be real.
And we want people to be real, and we want to be real with others. But like you say, when you've been hurt, and if you've been a pastor in a church for any length of time at all, you've been hurt by the church.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: You've been hurt by people.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Been hurt by other pastors.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: You know, and so when that happens, we tend to duck and hide and build these walls of protection now, for sure. And it's really hard then to let down your guard and to expose yourself to those things. So God wants us to know that he knows us intimately.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: And yet he still loves us and he still wants a relationship with us, and he still accepts us as his kids. And he's.
Yeah, he disciplines, but scriptures say discipline. So he loves.
So his love is even out of discipline. Right. So, you know, I think this whole idea of Ephesians, I mean, we went through the Gospel of John before we ever got to Ephesians. And the reason why we did that is because we were rebranding our church and we were trying to set a new idea of what we were going to be about. And as you know, the Gospel of John just talks about life and talks about our. His life in us, and we are in him. And. And there's so much in the gospel job where Jesus exposes who he is and then he gets to the heart of who people are when he was doing ministry.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: And you know, and he's. And he loved them. And I think of the woman at the. Well.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. You know, she had such a walls built up. Right. And he knew just exactly the right questions and, and no doubt she sensed his love for her even when she had messed up so many times. So, yeah, we went through the Gospel of John and now we're in the book of Ephesians. And I just was thinking that that was the place to go for our.
For. For the beginning of where we are. So we've been coastal community now for almost two years. Be two years in September.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: And so in about a year and a half of that, was going through the Gospel of John. Yeah.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: So good stuff.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Relationships are key for him.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I. I think that's a big part of. Of my journey too, is you've shared. You said this about me. We're talking about networking, and you said, oh, this person's really good. And you looked at me. So you're good at networking. It's like. And we've talked about this a Little bit like our personalities, we're not the upfront type people.
But. But God, of course, is, is on, Has a purpose and a plan. And, and his plan is much bigger than what we see or what we think or what we feel about ourselves. So God places us there. And so that's where I find myself, like, just connecting with, you know, oh, there's another church meeting in this area. Let me just meet with that pastor and go out to lunch. And so like, you said that to me once, saying you're good at networking. I'm like, boy, that just doesn't sound like me.
But that's what God is doing in me. And that's. It's such a beautiful thing. But then, but to have this type of a relationship to where we can do life together, we can talk life together.
I came into this just.
It's been two years really.
To be honest, it was two years in September. So it hasn't actually been two years since I've actually really understood this, but it's been two years since I resigned from church work. And I was just at a place of. Not really even burned out, but just thinking, there's got to be something more.
Why can there be all this excitement and things happening, but still this sense of there's something missing.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: And that was God's way of really getting me to actually slow down in order to actually receive this message of his love for me. And that's, that's one of the books that we, we journeyed through together.
And Carl and I bring this up all the time because it's one of our favorites.
It's Wayne Jacobson's He Loves Me.
And just to. So Jimmy brought this up because you've been sharing this book with the Praise band.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: And he brought it up. The, the whole daisy petals on the front.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: And it's like, well, this sounds really girly. And like this, you know, that's the first, you know, thought to the whole thing. But the reality is that's where most Christians live with, with their relationship with God in, in relation to God, I guess I would say their relationship is so skewed by its picking off those petals like that girl does on the, on the playground. He loves me. He loves me now.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: And so if things are going well. Well, God really loves me. If things are going bad, well, he's must not love me.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Or he's after me or he's disciplining me. And so, boy, it's really changed my whole perspective. I came into this, you Know, resigning from church work, stepping into understanding who I am in Christ, which I've always known. I've always known these verses. I got saved when I was nine years old, but I didn't fully understand what that means. So I spent all that time really just doing, doing, doing, like you already mentioned, and just feeling like, boy, this there seems like there's more.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And there.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: And there was.
And so much more to where the effectiveness of ministry really is so much greater. Because it's not me now trying to convince someone. It's me resting in the fact that it's the Holy Spirit that does the work.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: And allowing him the space to really minister to those people.
So going back to what got you even into ministry altogether?
[00:14:01] Speaker B: Well, when I was. When I was 10, I received Christ as my savior. You know, I was at a summer camp, and they had an altar call at the end of summer camp, and speaking had impacted me greatly.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: And so at the end of the Friday night, last night of camp, altar call, they wanted you to come forward, receive Christ.
And I was a shy country boy, and I could not get up out of my seat to go forward.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: I just couldn't do it.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: But. So the next day when my parents picked me up, brought me home, of course, I grew up on a farm in our country. Church is right across the road when the parsonage is right next to the church.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Gotcha.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: And I went to my dad. I said, dad, I want to receive Christ as my Lord and Savior. And so doing what good dads do, he says, well, let's give Alan a call, which is the pastor of our church. So Pastor Allen Day came over, and he led me to the Lord. And. And it was at that night, at that point, that I really felt that God wanted me to be a pastor. Yeah.
And in fact, want me to be a pastor like Alan was. Alan was a singing pastor. And I thought, well, there we go. Maybe that's what I need to do.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: But it wasn't until 20 or until I was 21 that I really.
That I remembered that call that I had that. That.
That earning or that. That. That just something within me that was. That was stirring within me.
And my wife and I would been helping with Campus Crusade and FCA and Youth for Christ and all these different activities.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: And.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: And finally through.
Actually, it was an injury.
I had been doing masonry work, and I had an injury and couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't support my family.
And the pastor at that time at the church that I was Going to.
He said, but it's because God doesn't want you doing that anymore. Sometimes he's got to bring us to the end of ourselves so we can cry out to him.
And he said, I really think you need to be in ministry full time.
And I've been doing it all along. I've been working with kids, working with youth.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: But it wasn't until then that I said, well, I got two kids now, and I don't think that that's in the right. That's, you know, in the stars for me, you know, I don't think that's right. And he said, no, you need to. You need to be doing this. And so through the encouragement and actually he kicked me out of the nest, which I think sometimes, you know, you got to kick the bird out of the nest so he can fly. And.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: That's what happened. So that began a journey of trust, learning faith, all of that.
But I really wanted to help kids understand, and youth understand.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Who they were, even though I didn't know that yet.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: But I wanted them stand, understand grace. Because I'd seen so much legalism in the previous church that I was in, so much law. Yeah. And how it hurt people, how to push people away.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: And so I thought, well, maybe I can be a help to the youth. And I thought I was going to be a lifer doing youth ministry.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: My body didn't agree with that, but.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it only does.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: But, yeah, that's. God just, you know, just has drawn me into that. I mean, I've always had a.
I mean, he created me in me with a heart to want to know him. So he's sensitive to that part. Yeah. Even though you kind of run in your own flesh for, you know, whenever you get the chance.
Right.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: It's easy to do. Yeah, yeah, it's easy to do. That's for sure.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: So. And then it wasn't until, man, about another 10 or 12 years later that, you know, I had been doing youth ministry. And I said yesterday in our sermon, I been doing youth ministry because I could. Sure, it was easy for me. I was a kid at heart, and it was really easy for me to connect with kids. And so I've been doing youth ministry for quite a while just because I could. And at that conference, I was at a conference, and the speaker, his name was Dennis Jernigan, said, there's some of you that have unfulfilled dreams out there.
And again, he wanted us to walk an aisle.
And I'm going, and I'VE been doing youth ministry for quite a few years at that point.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:41] Speaker B: But I don't like being up in front of people. That's just not right. Not where I'm at my comfort zone.
And so when he said that, I'm going, okay, I'm going to give this to him and I'm going to walk down.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: No matter what it looks like. Because I was afraid of what it was going to look like to other people.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Right here.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: I've been doing this youth ministry for all these years, and I was afraid of what people are going to think, you know, that have I been telling people a lie, I've been settling a false bill of goods. What have been doing here?
And the Holy Spirit literally kicked me in the seat of my pants and they drugged me up front and so that I would be able to. That was part of the surrender. That was part of the offering of my body as a living sacrifice. I had to do that.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: And so I've been on this journey now that was in the early years of. Of. Of. I was in my 30s and I was. So I've been on this journey ever since. Right.
Of understanding my identity, knowing my identity, understanding what grace is.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: And learning, you know, again in my 60s, that I still don't have a clue, you know, so it's about walking hand in hand with my Holy Father.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: And trusting him to do the work.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: Right.
For sure.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: Crazy.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: It is. It's a crazy journey.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:08] Speaker A: But it's exciting. It's a. It's a walk of trust, walk of faith, to really step out there and. And really, I think a big part of it is our identity. And when I finally could come to terms with the reality that he does, he just loves me. Like, it's just. That's it.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: Like to just receive that. In fact, I put this. This post out there just a couple days ago about what if the greatest commandment in the Bible is not to love others, but it's actually to receive his love? Because then that overflow of me receiving his love is that I will love others. It'll change everything about how I operate.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Well, Jesus was here on this earth. What did he promise the disciples? He said, I gotta go.
Don't fear about this. Don't fear, but this. Because I'm gonna send somebody.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: To. To you who's greater than I am. Or, you know, I don't care exactly how he said it, but he said, I'm gonna send somebody. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think, holy cow, we have the spirit of God living in us, which means that his fruit is in us, being manifest in us.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: That spirit of love and peace and patience and kindness, goodness, and all these things. So I've realized, you know, over the years, it's not about me trying to. To do these things. I don't have to try to love.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: I just gotta let him love through me.
My prayers have changed. I used to pray, Father, help me.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: I used to pray, Father, Here I am, you know, Now I pray this. I pray, Lord, I don't know what this looks like, but I know you need to love this person. Yes. So here I am. And again I go to Romans 12. I pray that prayer a lot. Sure. Here I am. I'm offering my body to you. It's living sacrifice. And then I usually say this.
Do whatever you need to do through me.
And. Because if I say, help me to do this right, then it becomes about me instead of about him doing it through me. So.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I've learned. And sometimes you get kicked, and sometimes you get stabbed in the back, and sometimes you get misunderstood. And sometimes you're. You're told that you're not a leader. You're told that you're. That you'll never amount to anything. I mean, you know, the church is not to a kind sometimes.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Right. We have to realize that he is about showing us what it means to love and what his love is all about.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: So I. I think we either we get these. These crazy ideas about the Holy Spirit, and we.
We either say it's all about this over here, or we say it's not. Now we ignore him. Totally together. All together.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
Right.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: When, in essence, he just wants to live his life through us. And it's. And the funny thing is, he uses our personality.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: He does.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: Your personality. You're a networker now. I am.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: I don't know where that came from, but now I am.
[00:23:12] Speaker B: He uses you and your personality to do. And he uses me totally different.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: And it's okay.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: And we can rest in.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: Rather than trying to. Well, I need to be like so and so, or I need to look like this.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: I can actually rest. And this is who I am.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: And I can live out of the gifts that he's given me. And I'm perfectly fine right where I'm at.
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Yeah. There's such freedom in that.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: And there is.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: And. And, you know, sometimes we get labeled as, oh, you're just a procrastinator, or you're just lax. Lax. Your Basic. Oh, you don't, you know, you're not really working hard or whatever. And you say, well, no, I'm resting in heal.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: You know, I'm allowing him to work through me.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: You know, when somebody wants to say, don't you care that that person is doing such and such, I said, you know what? God's trying to get to them just as much as he's trying to get to me.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: And he's trying to help us see who he is and how much he loves us.
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: So, Father, how do you want to love this person? Through me. Here I am.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Offer my body to you.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: Yeah. If we turn it all into behavior modification.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
It's.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: That's just stepping right back into law. And all it does is produce more of the same.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: And we become that hamster on that wheel that going around. Around, you know, mile a minute, not going anywhere. Yes. You know, spinning our wheels. Right.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: So it's really.
I would almost love to even talk further about doing. Because you've been in ministry without really understanding or receiving God's love and grace, and then you stepped into ministry and done ministry with that understanding. And I guess the question is, how does that look different? What was it like before and what is it like after?
[00:24:59] Speaker B: Well, before, I think you're always trying to please somebody. You're always looking at. At what you're doing through.
Am I. Am I going to make somebody mad? Yeah. Am I gonna. Am I, you know, am I doing what's right?
So specifically doing youth ministry. You know, you're always looking at numbers. You know, you're looking at.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: At being able to, you know, work with these kids and just seeing more and more numbers grow. And. And so you're judging yourself based on that. And sometimes.
Well, a lot of times when our mind is focused, our ideas are focused on the production of it.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Then we really miss the relationships that. That the Lord that the. The Father wants us to have in the middle of.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: And so it becomes more about.
It does become more about the doing. So we're always doing in light of getting our needs met, whether they be for acceptance or for love or being significant, you know, those kinds of things. So. So we. We're always looking over our shoulder. Am I doing the right things? And so when we. When somebody says something about us.
Remember I was doing worship at this one church early on, and I got my guitar and we're going to. We're meeting in a cafetorium at an elementary school cafetoria.
And I remember grabbing My guitar and getting ready to go up on stage to lead in worship. This older gentleman stepped out and he goes, you're not going to do the same old.
What do you say? This contemporary crap, are you? Right in the middle of the aisle. Right. And I'm going. It devastated me. Yeah. And this is back when I was doing things in performance mode.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: It devastated me. So I went to the. I turned right around and went into the men's room and just was. I was shaking like a leaf.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: It just had that effect on me.
And the pastor came in and goes, what are you doing? You're supposed to be up there. I'm going, I know, but this is what he goes.
Be who you are.
Don't worry about that. Yeah, you do. You're leading people to the throne of God. Yeah. Continue. It's great advice, but, man, I tell you, it was hard. Hard.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: I don't get as devastated as much because now I see people through that lens.
You know, they're trying to get their needs met. God. God is working in him. And maybe I'm the.
I'm what needs to happen in their life to help them on that journey. So. Yeah.
So when I. So, yeah, I used to.
Man, my emotions were all over the place.
[00:27:40] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: And somebody didn't like what I was doing. Somebody questioned what I was doing.
It was devastating. It took me. Right. Sometimes days and weeks. Yeah. Yeah. To get over that. Yeah.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: And I guess the. The difference. This is why I asked that question, because it's. That's been my journey, too.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: To a certain extent. You know, in all. So many different ways, but all very similar.
And it's like. Yeah. I remember I've had encounters like that, too, where you get confronted with these things, and it just like throws you to, you know, to the back of the room when you're supposed to be at the front of the room.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: It devastates.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: Like, what am I supposed to do with this?
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:19] Speaker A: And. And. But it's so much different to now operate out of just knowing who I am in Christ.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: It's a. It's a. It's a game changer. It's totally.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: It really is.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: It is so freeing. I know we use that word a lot.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: We do.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: But in your spirit, you can say. Yeah, you know, it's kind of like the old Southern. The Southern saying, bless his little heart. You know, we say that the South. Right. But. But it is kind of like that because now we're able to see from a different perspective.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Where before it Was all about me.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: I was the center of my world.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: And, you know, I was God's gift to the church, to youth ministry, the worship ministry, whatever. Whatever the case might be. You put a title on it. Yeah. And when. When we realized that no God is God used his son in the vulnerability he was in, you know?
[00:29:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: In.
In him giving his life for us.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: Right.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: At low moments. And he's. He. And he went to the cross without saying a word. Right. You know, so it wasn't about him as much as it was about what he was, you know, about us and about, you know, his relationship, restoring that relationship with us.
And I think I have learned so much about relationship, and I'm no expert on it, just my wife. I. I fail at the relationship part a lot.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: We'll get her on here next.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: Yeah, get her on here.
But I tell you what, I've learned so much about relationships, and God puts us together for a reason for that. So we begin to learn about his relationship with us and our relationship. So. Yeah. There's one time my kids came to me. They were in high school, and they said I was doing youth ministry and said, dad, can you just be our dad for a while? Yeah.
And that's when I left ministry.
Just left it. Yeah. And. Because I really, I. I thought, well, I've messed up here.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: If my kids are asking me that, then what kind of life am I giving other people?
Yeah. And that was a tough one.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: I've heard you share that before. And that's always really touched me.
I have two older kids along with my younger kids, but two older kids like it. It kind of grieves me sometimes when I think back to. I don't think they even had the safe space to even share that with me.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: And the reason being this is where I'm going with this whole thing is that it wasn't that everything I was doing was wrong.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: But everything that I was doing was where my identity was.
And so I couldn't give that up because it would. It's who I was.
And when I came to terms with the reality that's not who I am and that Christ is my identity.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: And Christ in me, it really transformed everything about ministry. And it left me just like you were talking about prayer, but not just with prayer. Like, it left me. Like, I don't know how to pray anymore. Of course, I don't think I ever really understood how to pray, but I also was like, how do I lead music?
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: How do I preach?
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: How Do I, you know, do all these things? And then that's where you come to this. This true revelation is it's not about me doing anything.
[00:31:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: It's really about me resting and who I am. And then the overflow of that comes, such an effective ministry. To be able to get across a message.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Or to share a song or to. And you can just be who you are.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: And rest in that.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: It's.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: It is really a beautiful thing when.
[00:32:04] Speaker B: We'Re trying to protect ourselves or protect our. Our, you know, whatever the case might be, you know, our, Our own minds. You know, when we're in that protective mode, we don't. We don't Are not able to rest. We're. No, we're. We're floundering and we're trying, trying, trying, trying to.
And my wife has called me a duck.
And I said, why did you call me a duck? She goes, because you just let things roll off your back.
And she goes, I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean that in a good way that you don't let things affect you anymore.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: But I used to let things affect me.
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Got you.
[00:32:46] Speaker B: And so, you know, just.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: When you're.
[00:32:48] Speaker B: When you're in the pleasing mode, you can't be.
You're not in. In the. When you're in a pleasing mode. Whatever. I don't want to say.
You just can't be in that restful place of allowing God to do whatever he needs to do through. Right. So when I walked away from ministry, I was. I was away from ministry for two years and. And now did I walk away totally? No, I just walked away from paid ministry. Right. I was still working with kids, with youth. Yeah. I was still leading worship.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: I just found a church that would have me just to let me do it, what I wanted to do.
[00:33:24] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: And in the Father.
After two years, he threw me back in the ministry. He opened those doors. I wouldn't seek him.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: In fact, I was content. Yeah.
But he evidently had different plans for him. Right.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: So.
[00:33:42] Speaker B: So then, then it's understanding. Okay. How do I walk hand in hand with him?
[00:33:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:46] Speaker B: You know, what's this look like now? And not trying to figure it out.
Right. But just grabbing all his hand and walking with him. Yeah.
[00:33:53] Speaker A: What's a lifelong journey?
[00:33:55] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, it is. You know, people say, when are you going to retire? Right. You're getting close to 70 and I'm going, is a retirement ahead for me or is this just what he wants me to do for. And who knows? I might not be doing this.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: You know, but I can't see myself not doing something for sure. You know, and it's not for God, but allowing him to do it in me. Because as pastors, we want to do things for God. Right.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: Always.
[00:34:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: Instead of what it turns into.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I'm just doing this for God. Yeah.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: So that's. That's what I've been saying from day one, since I opened this office.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Is it's a.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: From.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Not for.
No longer doing this to live my life or to serve God. Am I doing it for him?
I'm.
I'm living from my. My identity.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: And it's been my identity since I was nine years old when I received Christ as my savior. I just didn't know all along the way. I knew the verses, but it. But I didn't. That's one. That's where that Ephesians Passionist passage comes in, is to know him.
The prayer and the revelation that you. That you're asking for is to know him. And it's an intimate, deep understanding and knowing and relational, because God is very much relational. And I just. I go back to. To our friend, you know, Frank Friedman. And I. I just love. I listened to him.
He was interviewed by somebody. I don't even remember what. What it was. It was a different podcast.
He was being interviewed. He was just stepping down as elite pastor there in Baton Rouge.
And so the question to him was, what are you going to do next?
And he said that his answer shocked even himself because he knew. He wants to write more books, and he wants to. He's got this podcast, and he knew what he was going to be doing next, but out of his mouth was, I just want to be the safest person in the room for whoever I'm in front of. Around able to minister to. And so I just. When I think of your story in which we haven't even gotten to that aspect of. You worked with Frank in the past.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: And it kind of goes back to even the theme of what we're talking about.
[00:36:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: And then Frank is the one that kind of called you back.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's amazing.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: And Frank himself was a different person.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: And so then to. Towards the end of his pastoral ministry to. To conclude his life, he just wants to be the safest person.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: And it just. It so coincides with how God really spoke to me as I was bringing my guitar up to Virginia to do a pastor's retreat with my cousin. And the night Before I was like, okay, like, what songs are we doing? Like, you always had kind of putting this plan together, and God just spoke really clear to me that just said, just create space.
Create space for.
For me, for God to. To do a work in these men's hearts. Yeah. And it was like, so it's such a beautiful thought that it's not about me leading a song. It's not about a specific song. It's not about how well I do it.
It's just create space for them to really receive this revelation.
Even when I think about and whenever I have this conversation, come up and talking about this revelation, sometimes people are feeling like, oh, we have something that you don't have.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:22] Speaker A: It's like, well. Well, we kind of do, but we also don't. The reality is, if you're in Christ, you have everything that you will ever need. It's just a matter of. We've been so focused on the ministry being our life, when in reality, Christ is our life.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:40] Speaker A: So.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: So what's Paul say in Philippians 2? He says, I wanna know. Yes. Yeah.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: I want to know him. And I'm going, do I? Do I want to know him that way? Because he talks about suffering. Yeah. Do I want to know him? And suffering? Well, guess what? We're going to suffer. Yeah. And either we can choose to walk in that.
In that grace and that peace and that rest and that.
That security and in that love of who he is, or. Or we can choose to build up these walls.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: That don't allow people in. So when I'm looking at that, I'm going, paul said, I want to know him. And how many years had he been sharing Christ when he wrote those words, you know, and so beautiful. And I still, you know, I. I want to know him. Now, here's what I know about knowing him. Sometimes it comes through hard times.
[00:38:33] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Sometimes it comes through no job.
You know, sometimes it comes through walking away from something that. That you felt was where you needed to be.
[00:38:44] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:38:44] Speaker B: But you had to just walk away from that so that he could have the opportunity then to pour into you so you can at least have. Be still enough.
What's the scripture say? Be still and know that I am God.
[00:38:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: And I think David, you know, kind of got that, you know.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:03] Speaker B: As messed up as a guy as he was, right. As many things that he did wrong, he still had that opportunity to get along with this God. And I think that Paul understood that. And so when we look at some of these. These Letters that he's written to the churches.
His desire is that. And he says it in Ephesians.
I want you to see this. I'm praying for the spirit of wisdom that he would give you revelation Right. Into who this Jesus is, that that you're searching for. And so, you know, and you mentioned when I knew Frank, before he was transformed, before he began to understand this message is. He was a hard guy to. I mean, I loved him. We had a great time together, but.
[00:39:45] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: But he was not easy to be around.
[00:39:47] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:39:48] Speaker B: And.
And I. In. And then when he called me after a couple years and said, would you come to Baton Rouge and be our. Be our youth pastor? And I. I flat out told him, no.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: And I said, I don't want to be around him now.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: Step him back in.
[00:40:03] Speaker B: I am not stepping back into that.
And he said, God's got a hold of me. Come and see.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: And when he said, come and see, I knew I had to come and see.
[00:40:13] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: And when. After that, it was like, okay, how can I not. Yeah. You know, so I. And I was.
I was doing secondary ministry at the time. I was doing. I was doing tent making at the time. I wasn't. Yeah. You know, I was serving in the church. I was teaching in church.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: Right.
[00:40:31] Speaker B: But, you know, I was working secularly, too, so.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: You know, trying to make me ends. Me ends meet. So. Yeah, it was amazing that God had gotten a hold of him with this message of life.
Right.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: And.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: And he said. And one of the things he said to me, he said, you've been. You're one of the best youth pastors I've ever worked with. He said, I. You understand grace, but there's some things I want to help you with. So he. He actually had us go to a conference where we went out there. There was a group in Tampa that was teaching some of this same message. And so my wife and I went up there for a weekend.
[00:41:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: And, you know, then we went to Baton Rouge and he took us under his wig.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: And just began to share that. This whole ministry.
[00:41:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: Of life in Christ. And so. Yeah. Pretty crazy.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: It's amazing how God orchestrates the pieces of the puzzle around and helps us to become his. His symphony.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: You know.
Oh, you know, and I said this to you a year ago when I finally. When I met you and we had this conversation. I said, and we're speaking the same language here.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Yes. It's a relief.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: It was. It was. It was satisfying. It was.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: It was peaceful.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:52] Speaker B: And it was restful in that. It was. I didn't feel like I had to perform for you.
[00:41:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: You know, I felt like, okay, he's.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Or if you say the wrong words.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:04] Speaker A: You know, there's no, there's no condemnation.
[00:42:06] Speaker B: No.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: Because we both know the journey that we're on.
[00:42:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: And that. Yeah, we're probably gonna, in the symphony, maybe strike around.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: That's true too.
[00:42:15] Speaker A: Hit the wrong note. But God is really good at bringing us right back.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
In fact, I was talking to a lady yesterday and she said, you know, I love this church and I love what's going on here.
And she said, you know what clicked for me. She's only been coming for a few months.
She said, you said that if I say something that you don't agree with, or I say something that you're kind of iffy about, or I say something that you feel is wrong, please come tell me. Yeah. So when you said that and then I came and said something to you and you explained yourself to me, that was the difference.
And I don't think any of us have a corner of true, untrue.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: There's only one who has that corner. And so as we begin to understand this and as God begins to speak to us and, and teach us more about who he is in this life that we have in him and that we don't have to be right.
[00:43:16] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: You know, he never says we have to be right.
[00:43:19] Speaker A: Well, when we're, when we're living or, or in ministry and ministry is our life.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: We're not even open to that.
[00:43:27] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like. No, it's true.
[00:43:29] Speaker A: Don't tell me. I don't want to hear your criticism about anything. And it, we. And we take it personally. And so we're not opening the door. So that's why she's appreciating that you as the pastor are saying, doors open, doors open. Please talk to me.
[00:43:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: I'm on a journey too.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe I said something wrong.
[00:43:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:43:47] Speaker B: You know, maybe I said something we need to look into a little bit. So I, I think we, when we get so protective about building these walls up, we really miss. Yeah. Life.
[00:44:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: We miss the opportunity to be real with people who said that early on.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:08] Speaker B: We miss that opportunity. Unreal.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: For sure.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: So I'm just so thrilled at what God that he. I. And, and honestly, I think eternity with him. Right. Is going to be an ever learning opportunities for us to know him deeper.
[00:44:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: I don't think we're ever going to truly know the infinite God, the creator of the universe. Are we ever going to truly know? You know, it's that we're on a.
[00:44:36] Speaker A: Eternal timeline and every single day is a joy and exciting and because one tidbit of truth from his word can carry you for the entire week.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:44:49] Speaker A: You know, it's just like, oh, this is so encouraging.
[00:44:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: And yet even if I'm battling it, it's. It's still encouraging.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:56] Speaker A: To just to be able to rest and to know who I am. Well, it's been such a joy to talk Life. We're at 45 minutes.
[00:45:05] Speaker B: Oh man, that went quick. Did it?
[00:45:06] Speaker A: It goes by fast.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: You gotta head out somewhere?
[00:45:10] Speaker A: No, we'll be, we'll be just fine. But what a joy it is to do life. And yet for, for me to come down here and not have. There's like a parachute drop. I didn't have a connection to anybody besides my in laws and I had no connection to anybody ministry wise. And so the way that God even orchestrated that was really beautiful. So I'm excited about our partnership and what God is, is doing right here in, in Venice, Florida. So with that, we close out this episode.
Talking stories today.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Stories about life.
