Ep. 41 - One Nature or Two?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Yeah, we can say no to these things. And this is, this is the reality. I think a lot of it has been, my emphasis has always been, I just need to renounce the devil. I just need to renounce the devil. It's like, no, the devil's already defeated. I don't need to resonce the devil. I need to renounce the lie. What is it that I'm believing right now that isn't true? If what I believe and what God believes and says don't line up who's right. [00:00:23] Speaker B: Don't line up who's right? Yeah, probably says that in the past. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Andrew Farley. I love it. It's, it's such a great quote. And if they don't line up, who's, who's right? God is. And so I need to renounce. [00:00:35] Speaker B: I mean, this goes back, this goes back to the three things that that therapist said to me on my, on episode one, if you want to check it out. He said how God views you is, is how you need to see yourself. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:00:49] Speaker B: Not self righteous. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Self pity, man. How the Father sees the Son. [00:00:56] Speaker A: That's so beautiful. Hello. We welcome you back to another episode of let's Talk Life. Lift up Jesus. And then he's the one that draws all men to himself. We trust this truth. And this, our discussion every week stems from this truth. And so here we are. This is episode 41. One nature or two is our question. And it's a good question to talk about. So here we are, my friend, my co laborer, my cousin Carl. [00:01:38] Speaker B: I thought you had someone else there. [00:01:39] Speaker A: No, it's just us. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Oh, that's nice to be your friend. Yeah, this. Hey, Zach. It's great to chat and to explore crisis life and really answering the question of, you know, the, the, the nature question is, is really the question, who am I? [00:02:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:01] Speaker B: And fundamentally at the core, who am I? So I love, I love that you want to approach that today. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's a good angle to look at it because it really is all about our identity. And I think that's, that's where so many young people, I think all young people, because everybody was young at one point and everybody comes to this point of, of asking that question, who am I and what's my purpose? What am I doing with my life? So all those things all kind of come down to being answered, I think, and understanding this about who we are. So here's, here's kind of our conundrum. We have an old nature, a new nature, a sinful nature, a divine Nature, an atomic nature, a Christ nature, two natures, no nature. What is it that we have that's good? There's a lot of confusion. And so that's why we have to ask this question. Is there any way to biblically understand what does the Bible say? What does God say about the nature of a believer? So I guess the first question I'm going to toss out, and I don't know if you have something to say about this, but why is this important to even talk about and to understand? [00:03:16] Speaker B: Right. Well, it's like this, it's like all of us have our own story of, of God encountering us. That God is the initiator. Right. His grace initiates a, a response by faith. And so then, so then I'm on this journey with God and I sin. And, and I think we talked about that maybe last time or time before about sin and sins. And so, so if I sin then, then it's like, okay, well what happened and what do I need to do now? And what if I sin again today or sin again tomorrow? And so then the question is, well, who do I belong to and what's going on and, and how do I, how do I get right with God? And so there's a lot of confusion. There's a lot of confusion out there. A lot of, in a lot of. [00:04:08] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Various teachings. [00:04:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:11] Speaker B: And I think that, that maybe that's a good answer. What would you say to that? [00:04:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I would definitely say that. And it would. And, and along with what you're saying is it really brings me to a place and all people to a place of saying what's wrong with me. [00:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:26] Speaker A: And that's a really dangerous place to land and to stay because that's shame talking. And no, God has no intention and no desire for us to live in that shame. He wants us to know who we are in him, so we live shame free. And even when we sin and that's, it's like, that's kind of a mind boggling thing to say, something I never would have said all the years of my life before. But it's so true. It's like, can I take God's grace for granted? Well, yes, I actually can and he'll still love me. [00:05:01] Speaker B: And yeah, and I heard this, I heard a phrase like this. It's not cheap grace. It's actually the most expensive grace ever. I think Wayne Jacobson said that. [00:05:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:09] Speaker B: It's not cheap at all. It's actually very costly if we're going to take it for granted. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, and on. On coming off of all of that is the reality is, for me personally, I had a lot of struggles just talking about sin. I had a lot of struggles. [00:05:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Even in the. Growing up in the context, even of 20 years in church work. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:30] Speaker A: And I think I'm. I'm more free now than I've ever been. It doesn't mean that I'm never gonna sin again. That means lying to myself. But the reality is I have less of a desire to sin. Not because of disciplines, not because of this or that that I've placed in my life, not because I'm following a step, or you've arrived, or you've arrived. [00:05:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:55] Speaker A: For sure, it's not that, but simply because I've learned to understand who I am. [00:06:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:02] Speaker A: And I'm still learning also to live out of who I am. And the more I do that. [00:06:08] Speaker B: Wow. [00:06:09] Speaker A: The more I just have victory in my life. And it's really. [00:06:12] Speaker B: And more joy, more peace, more love. More love to give away. [00:06:17] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:06:18] Speaker B: You know, the. [00:06:19] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Keeping the record of wrongs is a lot shorter and easier to release. [00:06:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:28] Speaker B: And surrender to God when. When we're living out who I am in Christ. [00:06:33] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, yeah. Lots of confusion. You know, we're kind of answering this question. Why is this important? Because there has been lots of confusion and there's lots of. The other word I put down is disillusionment. There's a lot of disillusionment where there's a lot of people walking away from church, from the faith, from, you know, just believing anything is true. But the reality is, I think we've kind of developed this. I mean, even you and me as preachers in the past, preaching, really, we were preaching condemnation. And in a lot of ways, I was preaching that to myself, and I was condemning myself 100%. And I was keeping myself in that. There's something intrinsically wrong with me. I was continuing to live in that shame. And I remember this is something that you've said recently, and I loved that you said, it might have been in a record, it might not have been, but you just said, I will never use these words, shame on you. And it's like, yeah, that's. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. [00:07:35] Speaker A: That still sticks with me because it's so true. Yeah, that's so condemning. And that's. That's the post even. There's a post that I commented on this week in reference to, if you're living with your girlfriend, you are evil, and you need to repent. And I just comment to Saying if you're a believer, even if you are living with your girlfriend, you're actually not evil. You're not living the best life. You're not living with all the benefits of who you are in Christ, but you're not evil. And it's a whole different mindset to come from because most believers, I think I feel this strain in life of. Just like you were getting at earlier, of I'm struggling in life, whether it be sin or whether it be whatever. But I'm also like, have this, this new me. I'm a new creation. But how can I. But why am I saying so There's, I think there's this constant tension going on. Like I have freedom, but I'm also struggling with this. How do I put this together? [00:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Am I saying, or am I a sinner? Yeah, what we. Here's what we do. Here's what we do. Do you paint? Oh, you're a painter. Do you farm, you're a farmer. Oh, you sin, you're a sinner. And then we come into the circles of church and we say, oh, I'm just a sinner. Saved by grace. It's a false. Yeah, humility, whatever word you want to use. False, humble statement. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:03] Speaker B: Oh, I'm just. Yeah, just a sinner. Said by grace. [00:09:05] Speaker A: Yep. [00:09:06] Speaker B: And. And it's, and it's, it's self righteous in, in that phrase. But, but at the core, it's a lack of understanding of our identity in Christ and Christ's righteousness in me. As Hudson Taylor says, now this is the exchanged life, our unrighteousness exchanged for the righteousness of God all over me. [00:09:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:09:30] Speaker B: And that's my new identity. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And unfortunately, that's not what's been taught. It's not what, what we've been equipped with. It's not what people are being within, you know, the Christian walls. People are just not being equipped with this reality. And so it leaves them really saying, how many me's are there within me? What we think of even. And we'll get to this in a moment. We think of this battle being my old nature versus my new nature. And it's not that at all. [00:10:01] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:01] Speaker A: So it's so important. And that's where, you know, I'm not going to dig into the word nature a whole lot here, but the word nature can just be very confusing in the Greek language and in the English language. And then you take the NIV for 30 years of translating. [00:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the Bible I used for 30 years. [00:10:19] Speaker A: Me too. And That's. And it caused a lot of confusion. They did. [00:10:23] Speaker B: Sinful nature. Romans 8. Right. Sinful nature. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Sinful nature. Sinful nature. And it nailed this point. But the reality is, in the Greek, that that word sarks, that was translated as sinful nature in the NIV for those 30 years. In the Greek, it doesn't mean sinful, nor does it mean nature. It simply means flesh. And so. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:46] Speaker A: It changes everything when you can see it through the. [00:10:48] Speaker B: Fundamentally changes everything. [00:10:51] Speaker A: It does. So. And I. Go ahead. [00:10:55] Speaker B: No, no, go ahead. [00:10:57] Speaker A: So the word nature. The best. And this book that I'm reading, this is John Best. Dr. John E. Best. Resolving misunderstandings of the Exchanged life. I love how he just kind of lays this out there. He says, okay, we have these. All these confusions with the word nature. He says, how about we just bypass that word altogether and we simply ask, and we ask of God. [00:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:22] Speaker A: What does the Bible teach about our true identity as a believer? And that's a really great place to begin. Rather than trying to dissect all these different meanings of the word nature, let's just ask, who are we in Christ? This is essential, I think, for us to be able to walk this out. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:45] Speaker A: Rather than work on our sin, we. This is essentially what we are doing with people. [00:11:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:52] Speaker A: Is rather than working on their sin, we guide them into knowing who they are in Christ. Their identity. [00:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:00] Speaker A: And. And slowly but surely, the sin problem resolves itself. Wow. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Isn't that crazy that the kingdom of God's upside down? Like, like we think that we need to work on our sin more. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:15] Speaker B: Like that's, That's. Here's a book. Yeah. I'm doing this. [00:12:19] Speaker A: Well, 43 years I was working on my sin, and it was never working. [00:12:25] Speaker B: Yeah. How to work. Right. [00:12:27] Speaker A: It never worked. [00:12:28] Speaker B: Oh, man. And I think maybe now is a good time to mention it because I wanted to bring it in here. [00:12:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:34] Speaker B: Because. Because on your, on your notes, your notes, that. The secret notes that only we have. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Right. Right. [00:12:41] Speaker B: It says disillusionment, people walking away, why they can't measure up. The. The ministry of condemnation is very alive in, in the American church. Right. And so think about this. So pastors say, carl, how can I get my guys to be vulnerable? How can I. How can I get people to open up? And I always start with the same thing. You gotta go first. But when we as pastors set ourselves up to be the standard, and sometimes we're elevated by the people, you know, you know, they, they, they, they, they think that you're never Going to sin. But they don't, they don't treat you that way with honor anyway, at least some of us. And so, so, so we, so, so just this past week, being at a pastor's group and I was real excited to connect with some guys and, and there was some awesome, some awesome moments there. But the, the, the guy up front was. And they were talking about how this church has grown numerically, so there's a lot of people there now and a lot of money now and blah, blah, blah, blah, new buildings do this and, and, and basically God's blessed them by the, this growth. That, that was a blessing. And I'm just thinking that's not always a blessing, you know? And then the second thing is he literally said, he literally said, we've earned every inch. And just like that, just like that guy in the gospels that said, I want to build more Milos. And is that you fool, Your life's gonna be taken. So I literally stood around thinking, is he gonna be struck down like, like, literally thinking, man, if I pride, like just. Oh, I can't believe. He said. But the whole point of his talk for five minutes was if you want your church to be like mine, then you can, we can journey together and I'll give you the steps and the principles and you put them into practice and you work really hard, but you gotta be really committed. Like all those things he literally said, like, you would think I'm exaggerating or making it up. And I'm like, no, this is exactly what he said. And over a two year span, you can do the same thing. And so when I go back to that idea of disillusionment. Can't measure up. There we go. Yeah. I can't measure up to you. And because you're not vulnerable. Well, I'm still in. Caught in a center. I'm living in the center. I keep doing the same thing, and I don't want to, but I keep doing it and I'm never going to be. So what do I do, Zach? I'm just gonna leave. [00:15:14] Speaker A: Wow. [00:15:14] Speaker B: Because. [00:15:15] Speaker A: Yep. [00:15:16] Speaker B: And maybe, and Maybe it'll be five years later, 10 years later, or maybe 40 years later where the Holy Spirit starts doing something. But man, that I believe that's a major cause of this too. [00:15:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:27] Speaker B: Can't measure them. [00:15:28] Speaker A: It is a hundred percent. There's no question about it. And it takes me right back to that same question that I already said that we end up saying of ourselves, what is wrong with me? Why can't I do it the way that, that Guy's doing it. Why can't I be like, so and so that we just live that in that shame? That's why it's so important to answer this question. Yes. To really conclude that we don't have these multiple ident. Multiple natures. [00:15:59] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:00] Speaker A: We have. We. We have just this one true me. That's what the. The Bible teaches about my true identity. And so we'll just dig into these with the, I don't know, five minutes or eight minutes maybe that we have left. But just to dissect and understand a little bit more about these things. I think the first thing to. To really dig into is Romans 6, 6 says, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him in order that our body of sin might be done away with so that we would no longer be slaves to sin. So the old man no longer exists. He's. He's dead. He's been crucified. Galatians 2:20. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live. The eyes in that statement is talking about the old man. He is dead. He is gone. So why in the world do we hold on to that old man and try to resurrect the old man and try to change and equip and be better in the old. It's like he's dead. Why am I trying to resurrect something that is dead and was killed intentionally so that we could be no longer a slave to that sin, but a slave to righteousness? And that. That's even a beautiful concept, that. And that's really what I've been trying to, I guess, get across all the time, is we can actually live in this newness of life. I struggle every day to do it, but I. But I have it. And every day that I trust. [00:17:37] Speaker B: Well, yeah. And where's the struggle? The struggle is in our minds. [00:17:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:17:41] Speaker B: Not in a wicked heart. Deceitful. [00:17:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:45] Speaker B: That's the old guy. No. Yeah. So now it's in my mind that. Right. So here's. Here's the next verse. Right. Ephesians 4:24. [00:17:55] Speaker A: I love. [00:17:56] Speaker B: Put on the new self. [00:17:58] Speaker A: Yep. [00:17:59] Speaker B: Created after the likeness of God and true righteousness and holiness. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Yes, yes, two. Two words. Righteousness and holiness, that I would never have said of myself. [00:18:13] Speaker B: Never understood it. [00:18:15] Speaker A: That was the problem. That was the mindset that we had, that it is impossible for me to even accept and receive and to believe that this is true of me, that I'm righteous, that I'm holy. Even though the Bible says, I know, right. So having that mind shift really changes everything. So are we going to trust God with what he says about us? Do we trust this truth? That's what we have to really come to is here's what the Bible says. Am I going to live out of and trust this truth? [00:18:49] Speaker B: Is the gospel really this good? [00:18:51] Speaker A: Yeah, and it is. [00:18:53] Speaker B: It is. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So amazing. So secondly, Scripture says that we can only have one basic identity. If we had two identities, an old one and a new one was simply. Just doesn't work. We. We can't. If we had both, then we would be both a child of God and we'd be a child of Satan. And the question is, can good. [00:19:20] Speaker B: Can we be both? Right. [00:19:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:22] Speaker B: Right answer. No. [00:19:25] Speaker A: It'S impossible. Yeah, we. We can't. We can't be in Christ and in Adam at the same time. Well, First Corinthians 15:22 says, as in Adam, all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. There is. It's an exchange. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:41] Speaker A: We were. We were born physically in Adam, but we are reborn in Christ. And there is this transfer that has happened from being an Adam to being in Christ. We cannot be both. It doesn't work. You can't be sinful and righteous at the same time. And so that goes back to. And this is where I would ask a question where I think we have already kind of dissected this a little bit, is what happens when I do sin? Are we evil? And that goes back to the post that I commented on. It's like, okay, yes, there are things that are wrong, but me just coming and saying, you're evil for doing these things, that's not helping anybody. Because I can't trust this truth that you're bringing to me in that way. And transformation comes when I can trust the truth. So the way that I'm sharing the truth is very crucial to you understanding the truth and being able to trust that truth is a reality for you. If I'm just coming at you saying you're evil, well, that leaves me saying, man, what's wrong with me? Why can't I be like you? And that brings us right back. Yep. And that confusion and that shame just overpowers. And no wonder people are walking away. So equipping people with the truth and just knowing that. So the third thing I wanted to really dig into is maybe not dig into, but just share, because it really answers the question for us. It's First Corinthians 6, 17. The one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with him. So this is a crucial verse to really understand because we are, thanks to God, permanently united with him, our spirit. To his spirit. So the question then that would follow that is, would he have done this if our spirit was sinful and evil? Could he even. [00:21:45] Speaker B: Right, right. That's even a better question. Could he. [00:21:47] Speaker A: Right, yeah, he couldn't because he's holy. So he couldn't connect with my. So the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with him. I mean, there's. There's verse after verse, really, that talks about that. I mean, what partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What partnership can light have with darkness? And then that's First Corinthians or Second Corinthians, I think 6. Then in First John too, God is light. In him, there's no darkness. So how could he be joined with me if I'm just evil? He can't. And so resting in this reality, in this truth that I am righteous and that I am holy man. And then that's where we get to the fourth one, the believer's warfare. Because there is a war going on. Yeah, but you have already said it. Right. Where's the war at? It's in our mind. [00:22:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:44] Speaker A: It's really the. The true battle is between the flesh and the Holy Spirit. But that's not what we've been equipped with all of our lives. [00:22:52] Speaker B: No. Old man versus new man. Right, right. [00:22:54] Speaker A: We've been told that we have these two natures basically, that were. That are fighting against each other. [00:23:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:00] Speaker A: And here. Here's a list of things to do in order to allow this, the, The. The good man, the new man, to win. And we're not equipped with the reality of really what the Bible teaches, that there is this flesh. Yes. That you have to deal with, and the flesh is always at odds with the spirit. [00:23:18] Speaker B: Well, here's a question for you. This is unrehearsed. [00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:22] Speaker B: So 20, whatever. 20 some years in as pastoral ministry. How much time did you spend in Romans 5, 6. [00:23:32] Speaker A: Oh, not much. Not much because there was so much. [00:23:38] Speaker B: And maybe Even so, Romans 6. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:41] Speaker B: Because Romans 5, 8. Yeah, that's good. With part of the gospel. [00:23:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Right, right, right. Because it talks a lot about sin. And it's like I didn't know what to do with all the sin in my life. I could never have victory over it. And it was saying that I had this victory, but I was like, I couldn't believe it. So I. I couldn't teach it. No, I could. No, I didn't have it myself. [00:24:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:05] Speaker A: How am I going to give that victory to anybody else? [00:24:08] Speaker B: And. And it's so amazing. Like. Like when your eyes are open to the wonder of grace, to the power of grace, to the reality of our. Of the grace God's given us. [00:24:21] Speaker A: Yes. [00:24:22] Speaker B: That. That I can. [00:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Consider or understand. Think that I'm dead to sin. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Yep. [00:24:30] Speaker B: And I'm dead, man. [00:24:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that. I love that. And that. And that's what takes us to Titus 2:11 and 12, which is. Which is amazing to me because it's always been one of my favorite verses, and I think probably my favorite because I didn't understand what it meant, but I wanted. What it was, was trying to teach me. [00:24:50] Speaker B: Oh, isn't that. Isn't that your new heart yearned for this freedom? It yearned for this understanding even when you didn't understand it. How about that? [00:24:59] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, that's right on. It's exactly what it was. That gives me chills even right now, thinking about. Because now it's a present. Well, it's always been a present reality, but now it's a present knowing and an intimacy that I have with God that I've never had before. And that's what this. This journey for me has been. Has. And so I should read it. [00:25:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:20] Speaker A: Titus 2:11 and 12 says, for the grace of God has appeared. So grace is a person, Jesus, and he's appeared, bringing salvation to all men. And then this is the crux of it, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and live sensibly. So this isn't the version I grew up learning. You know, I was the NIV guy, too, that the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. And now I probably don't even remember it, but it's. It's teaching us, and it's equipping us with the reality of the ability to say no. [00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Yeah. We can say no to these things. And this is. This is the reality. I think a lot of it has been. My emphasis has always been, I just need to renounce the devil. I just need to renounce the devil. It's like, no, the devil's already defeated. I don't need to renounce the devil. I need to renounce the lie. What is it that I'm believing right now that isn't true? If. If what I believe and what God believes and says, don't line up who's right. [00:26:26] Speaker B: Don't line up who's right. Yeah. Probably says that in the past. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Andrew Farley. I love it. It's it's such a great quote. And if they don't line up who's. Who's Right. God is. And so I need to renounce. [00:26:39] Speaker B: This goes back. This goes back to the three things that that therapist said to me on my episode. One, if you want to check it out. He said how God views you is. Is how you need to see yourself. [00:26:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:55] Speaker B: Not self righteous. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Self pity. [00:26:58] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:26:59] Speaker B: How the Father sees the Son. [00:27:04] Speaker A: That's so beautiful. [00:27:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:07] Speaker A: And that was your path into true victory that you didn't have for all those years growing up in. And serving in. [00:27:16] Speaker B: No, 20 some years, dude. Romans 6, maybe. What? Romans 6, 23. We'll talk about that. [00:27:24] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:27:26] Speaker B: You know, that's part of the gospel. Wages sin is death. But I didn't know. The gift of God is life. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Right? [00:27:34] Speaker B: Heaven. Right? Heaven someday. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So true. [00:27:38] Speaker B: It's so great, man. This. This grace is so amazing, isn't it? [00:27:41] Speaker A: It is. It is. It's so amazing. There's. It's such a gift. And the, the reality about a gift is we just receive. And it's not a matter of measuring up to receive it. It's. It's a gift and it's ours. And so let's. Let's trust that truth. [00:28:01] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Wow, man. [00:28:03] Speaker A: It's such a beautiful thing. This is such a great thing to be able to just talk life. And life is Christ because he is the life. He's the way, the truth and the life. So we praise him for that. [00:28:19] Speaker B: Amen.