Ep. 50 - The Flesh, The Pull of Religion

[00:00:00] Speaker A: We see it as, oh, this is. This is our stewardship. God's given it to us and we got to be a good steward. It's like, no, we're not called to manage people. We're called to love one another. Right? [00:00:13] Speaker B: Yeah. We're not called to manage people and we're not called to teach people to manage their sin because. No, no, no, not if it works. Sin management is, is a hoax. It's already been managed. [00:00:28] Speaker A: Praise God. Praise God that Jesus. Think about this. He's coming back a second time not to deal with sin. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. Right? [00:00:36] Speaker A: You already did it. Yes, it was. It was full. It was sufficient. Right. To stop picking up what's not ours. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Right. Thanks for listening to let's Talk Life, Carl. And this is episode 50, Carl. And that's pretty cool. We're nearing that one year mark. It's just neat. It's just neat that we've been able to journey together that long. And we, of course, haven't done it every week. And we're not concerned about that. We're on this journey and we're journeying with other people. And I love calling it that. Not just because it was a band journey and that we don't stop believing, but the reality is it is an incredible journey and it's best journey with other people. You know, life has always been a journey with other people, but when you have a mask on, you're basically just kind of journeying alone, even though you're full. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's a great way to put it. [00:01:27] Speaker B: So. [00:01:28] Speaker A: So we're still living in isolation and we are experiencing the. The fruits of isolation, which is loneliness. [00:01:36] Speaker B: And it's so, so true. It's. It's crazy. I have this, and I shared a little bit with you already out of this. Live, loved, free fall. And. And that loneliness is part of this whole thing. He says a loneliness flourishes in large crowds because it's. It can be very impersonal and so you can be so surrounded by all these people. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Yes. [00:01:59] Speaker B: But the lonely. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah, like our whole lives. [00:02:02] Speaker B: So. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:02:02] Speaker B: So in the comparison, this. I really appreciate this in here too, because I've been on the hiking trail and he compares it to hikers that pass each other and there's nobody else on the trail. You might be a group of two or three and you meet a group of two or three coming the other day and like, you stop and you have a conversation. You find out where each other are from and like, you get personal, like really fast and it's so different. These are complete strangers, not people that you see every week wherever you might go. And it's just that that's the difference of the large crowd thing can actually bring more loneliness. Loneliness flourishes in large crowds. And so I think that's what we're up against. That's what we're talking about today. I mean, it's flesh and specifically the pole of religion. And Wayne Jacobson, I think one of our favorite books is He Loves Me. You know, he says it right in the introduction. It was a thing that struck me right from the very beginning of this book. The pole of religion can be far stronger than the freedom of relationship. That's the battle that we're up against all the time because we want to get sucked back to. Here are the things that I'm doing for God. And God is just saying, listen, I love you. Just rest in who you are. And the doing will overflow out of you because you're resting in who you are. So what do you make of that, Carl? The pull of religion. What is the pole? Why is it effective? Those are all questions I've thrown out there. [00:03:26] Speaker A: It starts with the mistaken notion that we have passed down that God's love is something we earn. And it comes in many different forms. One way that I'm really pushing back on in my circles is this idea that if I do what is right, then somehow good things are going to happen to me. So, so if I, so if I, if I do all these things right, then subsequently God's just going to give me everything I want over here. And it's a prosperity theology. Even if we would say, oh, I don't believe in the prosperity, there's something about that that is appealing to our flesh, that I'm earning something, or I'm proving that I'm worthy of it, or we wear the mask. And man, it's, it's rooted firmly in, in, in American Christianity. And then I don't think it's just American. [00:04:14] Speaker B: It's not. But I think the, the American dream has ex. Made it explode in America. And I'm fully on board with and appreciate them and dream. It's just that the American dream doesn't fit in your relationship with God. It's not a matter of work really hard to be successful as a Christian and you will succeed where The American dream. Yeah, I can start anything I want and I can, if I work hard at it, I can be successful. That's the, that's the economy that we're in. And it's very Potential that we could actually make a living doing whatever it is we put our mind to. But working harder as a Christian doesn't make me any closer or better. It doesn't bring life. And that's where the whole religious mindset is really failing. And so many people, so many people are disillusioned by it. And I just go to the flesh. I mean, to answer that question of what is this pole and why is it so effective? Well, it's the flesh. And because the flesh is always gonna war against the spirit. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Y. [00:05:12] Speaker B: And so that's, that's one of the things I shared with you already, but I'll share it here. That religion, I. I put these titles. This is religion. This is like relationship. This is out of true face. They have their trust for today. This one's called the flesh. Yeah, but the flesh works best in darkness and hiding and self protectedness. And if I think of anything religion wise, I think that's most people experience in the church. I jump over to even chapter one here of Frank Friedman's book. He says this, it relates. I didn't even think about it. He starts out this, is stunned by grace. He gives five promises. He starts to talk about joy, peace, abundant life, rest and freedom. And then he says, now take a moment, take an honest look. He says, at the church, how many Christians have even two of these promises as a consistent, abiding experience in their life? And it's like, no, it wasn't true for me. It's not true for most people. I think we. And okay, so it wasn't true for me, but I would have said that it was true for me. Yes. [00:06:16] Speaker A: Right, right. We think this is working. We don't call it religion because we think it's a relationship, but it, there's something missing in it. [00:06:25] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:25] Speaker A: I mean, the whole time, there's something. For all those years we were, we. We were both had different questions about what is it? And it's because it wasn't life. It wasn't Jesus. Yeah, you know, we thought it was. We thought it was serving him. We thought it was telling everyone about him and, you know, tell people to work hard and, you know, stop sinning, get serious. And life, you know, it wasn't. Wasn't love. We weren't fully loved. We didn't understand what that meant. [00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, so true. Well, we didn't know what it meant. And also, like, the other side of his quote is, you know, so the pole of religion can be far stronger than the freedom of relationship. So what keeps us from that freedom of relationship is really that fear of being vulnerable, of being known, of somebody knowing all of my garbage, you know, on my worst day. And it's like, why? [00:07:15] Speaker A: Sure. And he says this moving from a performance based religious ethic to a relationship deeper than the father's affection is no small transition. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Because you're in a so deep. [00:07:28] Speaker B: Yes. And so, I mean, that's really answering a lot of the questions as that I'm throwing up right now. [00:07:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Not spewing, but I'm throwing out to God. Like how God do you do we get this across to people that think they get something that they don't really get? They have it even, but they don't get what they have. It goes back to Romans 6 and all over Paul saying, do you not know? It's like, I've taught you this. How many times? I've told you this. How many times? But do you not know? Because you're obviously not living out of this holiday. And that's, that's the battle all the time. [00:08:02] Speaker A: And the metrics, how do you measure it? How do you evaluate it? [00:08:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:07] Speaker A: Because the metrics of religion, very simple. How many times are you doing this? How many times are you not doing that? It's all about you doing something. Right. [00:08:17] Speaker B: I'm going back to Frank because he says this. I had turned the good news of what God had done for me into something I had to do for myself. I put me as the focus. I left God out of the equation, and I tried to live the Christian life on my own. This actually I didn't even catch the first time I read this book, but it's earth shaking to me. Jesus not only gave his life for me on the cross, he gave his life to me by the spirit. That's the rest of the gospel. Not just that there is rest in the gospel, but that there is more to the gospel than I ever stood. And now I can see that Jesus didn't just die on the cross for my sins, but he also gave me life. He gave me his life. And it's incredible when I can rest in, in that truth and that reality. And it changes everything. It really does change everything. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. And he continues to describe it, saying it's a. It's a fulfilling adventure that transforms. [00:09:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:20] Speaker A: And wow, there's freedom there. And so. So that's scary because I don't have a metric to it. Yeah, I can't. It's really hard to measure freedom, you know, And It's a lot easier to. How many times you go into church? How many times are you doing this? How many times are you doing that? I mean, that's right. I mean, for 18 and a half years of a, you know, pastor in a church in New Jersey, it was like I had to have a list of all the things I did that month, you know, and how many. I mean, it's just like, nauseating now. I look back, just nauseated. Like, just. Just what the expectations are in pastors and what pastors think and just. It's all of it nonsense. It's not life, you know, it's. It's. [00:10:01] Speaker B: I praise God for the shift. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:04] Speaker B: Because I saw. I saw it in you. Like, we always had a closeness whenever we saw each other. We could just kind of catch up, pick up where we left off, but we were both in this striving and knighting and a world of shame and not knowing what to do with it all. But we're in ministry, so our only conversation is, oh, what do you. What have you been teaching? You know, what have you been doing to. To bring to the people? And there was a dynamic shift in you after it all fell apart. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:38] Speaker B: And you had a story to tell. It wasn't just that you had this story, and it wasn't just that you had this redemption and your wife coming alongside you saying, other men need to hear the story. It was like you actually stepped into knowing, like, what Paul was saying. Don't. Do you not know? It's like I finally do know. I finally do realize this is who I am. And it changed everything about. [00:11:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Even. Yeah. I can't even go back to even recognize, like, this is what it was. I can't even put it into a station of what do we talk about? It was just different. You were different. And so ultimately, that was really even the beginning point for me of. I didn't know it even at the time, but I was on this journey of I'm dissatisfied. I'm not. I'm. I'm hiding. I'm hurt. I'm just. I'm. I'm confused. I don't understand where's the life is really what the question I was asking. Yeah. [00:11:33] Speaker A: And then. [00:11:34] Speaker B: And then I opened up the book, the rest of the Gospel, and he's. His first chapter is where's the life? And I was like, okay, God, thank you for bringing this clarity to me. I mean, I didn't even finish this. This last thought on the flesh. So on one side, the way that I even See, church as we knew it before. [00:11:54] Speaker A: Right, Right. [00:11:55] Speaker B: In ministry is that there's a lot of darkness and hiding and self protectedness. That's the flesh. But our best protection against the flesh is the opposite of those things. Humility, trusts, love and being loved. I really love. That's what I really got out of. He loves me too. The book, you know, to Love. We obviously all know and have probably used that verse. You know, we only love because God first loved us. But it's, it's really not until receive that love that we're able to love others. [00:12:27] Speaker A: That's right. [00:12:28] Speaker B: So I might have quoted that verse a million times but I was never really receiving his love fully. [00:12:35] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:36] Speaker B: To allow it to change me to the point where now everything I do is. It's just the overflow of love into other people's lives. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:45] Speaker B: And I don't know that those, those are the things that humility and that trust. Those are things that we are scared of. Yeah. Wow. If we're in a performance driven mindset of I'm going to serve God, I'm going to do these things. Those are things that scare us. Because if I'm real of my issues, what are people going to think? And everything falls apart. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Right. Because we have it. Because it's about image or it's about illusion. You know we were, we were in a zoom a little bit ago where there was a song on the. The chapter from a hymn that said prone to wander Lord. I feel it. But if you actually stood up and said hey I'm. This is what I did this week. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:26] Speaker A: Right. So we sing. We're like, oh no, don't actually, don't actually tell us what you did. Don't actually be vulnerable. Don't actually, don't actually be honest with what you struggle with. So it just keeps us living defeated, not victorious in Christ. Because the whole system teaches you to hide. It does pretend and have religion. That's not Christ. It's not the way of Christ. It's not wholeheartedness. [00:13:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's why it's so earth shaking. I think when you do receive this and you step to man really trusting God. And my first step into trusting God really fully with myself was just beginning to pray that Ephesians prayer. God, would you give me a spirit of wisdom and revelation to know you? Well, God knew what it would take for me to know him and it led me to the point zioning. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:23] Speaker B: And kind of being basically in the wilderness. [00:14:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:26] Speaker B: Like I don't know what I'm doing, you know, what did I just do? And. But I was in a place where I had to depend on him. That's exactly what he wanted me to learn. And it's what took me on this journey. And it's really a full thing. So, like. Yeah, that's the question, I guess, that I keep pondering or have been all morning just thinking, how do we get this across? People that don't get it. How do we get it across to people specifically that think they get it, but they don't get it and. Well, first of all, it's not about us getting it across at all. Right, Correct. [00:14:59] Speaker A: So I know, you know, that you know the deep answer, but what your heart is saying, man, my heart hurts for, for these, these believers that. [00:15:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:15:09] Speaker A: That are. That are still confused, I guess maybe, or it's unclear. Right. So for, for our part, you know, it's so freeing that it's not up to us. That's right. It's very freeing for, for, for us to admit it's not up to us. Right. But it's also a great opportunity. Opportunity or. And it's a great opportunity. Not. But, but. And it's a great opportunity for us to be able to be clear on. On these amazing, amazing realities of Jesus in us. Christ in us. [00:15:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:37] Speaker A: So that people that are confused or that hear mixed messages every Sunday or they're giving us messages every Sunday. [00:15:45] Speaker B: Yes. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Ah, wait a minute. Is this law. Is this a new law? Is this like, new religion, you know? [00:15:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:51] Speaker A: It's a great question. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm just. There are so many instances, I guess, with. I'm starting a new book study with a group of people in person. [00:16:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:02] Speaker B: And I'm seeing people already that are interested. They think they have a grasp on this, but I know that inwardly they won't. And so that's the burden for sure. And so that's why I just keep praying the same prayer. God, give them a spirit of wisdom and revelation, open their eyes. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:19] Speaker B: Meeting with a local pastor. You know, it's interesting because there's an element of. We even talk about this. We talk about how, oh, we're talking the same language. Like there's this connection. And the connection right away, even with this local pastor, is we understand that there are issues within the institutional ministry mindset of this is what it all supposed to look like, and this is what you're supposed to do and so can recognize that there is a problem there. And I'm stepping into really finding, like I've. I found true Healing and freedom and victory. And. And they're still. But they. But they think that we're speaking the same language. It's like, how. How do I get this across? When you think that I'm saying the same thing that you're saying, and that's where. That's. That's the journey, too, of trust. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And you've said it before, just being able to define words, you know, being able to articulate. You know, you said that before. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Right? [00:17:17] Speaker A: That's helpful. Very helpful. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm thinking of this guy Joseph, too. He's got a ministry north of me, and we've met a couple of times, and he's really kind of disillusioned with the whole ministry thing. Has lost a lot of support just because of a lot of, you know, stuff in ministry. It's just tough, you know. And so he sees that there's an issue, but he doesn't really understand this whole reality. And he is beginning to see it. He recognizes it, but it. But in the context of where he's at, he's like. He's left to fight the system basically alone. [00:17:57] Speaker A: Wow. [00:17:57] Speaker B: And that's what it kind of. So it is. It's weird because you don't really need to fight anything and you're not alone. So both of those things are not true. But that's. That's what ministry kind of does. It chews you up and spits you out. So you're. You're one of two things. You're either in the system, playing the game, or you're detached from the system and you're fighting the system. And. And I think that we're really here to say there's actually other way. [00:18:24] Speaker A: There is. [00:18:25] Speaker B: His name is. And his name is Jesus, and let's trust him. And it's. It's interesting. [00:18:31] Speaker A: So those are all. So on Sunday, there's a mass exodus of resignations based on our podcast. As pastors say I'm done. You know, it's just. It's just fascinating just, you know, and being on this journey of just looking at how, as you know, in the. The church, we think, you know, when I say church here, I'm talking about the organization now, not the real church body. Christ, an organizational church, thinks it's like. It's like a Macy's or a basketball team where I just. I just replace the president or I just fire the coach and hire a new guy. And it's just. All of it, the whole system of it is. Is so religious and. And yet and yet we don't see it that way. We, we see it as, oh, this is, this is our stewardship. God's given it to the US and we got to be a good student. It's like, no, we're not called to manage people. We're called to love one another. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, we're not called to manage people and we're not called to teach people to manage their sin. Because none of that works. No, no, none of it works. Sin management is, is a hoax. It's already been managed. It's already been defeated. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Praise God. Praise God that Jesus think about this. He's coming back a second time not to deal with sin. [00:19:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. Right? [00:19:54] Speaker A: Yes, it was, it was full, it was sufficient. [00:19:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:58] Speaker A: So picking up what's not ours. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, for sure. Laid down and so, yeah, I always am grappling, especially over the weekend here and I guess into today of like, how do we get this across? How do we explain it? How do we. And basically we've already kind of explained these. We've already answered this. I think many times I remember going through class, the words that was used was life on life. It's just life on life, living, not getting it right all the time. So that I'm a good example to all these other people, but actually journeying together, even, even through the messy stuff, even when I get it wrong, we're just journeying together. Wayne Jacobson, you know, I've said many times I love his, his wording of it. It's a made up word of one anothering, just journeying with other people and then going to. Back to this devotional thing that I picked out too, that he says God loves in the singular. And I love Wayne Jacobson. When you go to his. He loves me, he. I don't have it open. I don't remember if I'll get it totally right. But he just said John 3 singing was to. To him as he was growing up and learning. It was like it just sounded so broad that it wasn't personal, it wasn't relatable to him. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:15] Speaker B: And so he's come to this recognition, this understanding that how do we love other people? Well, the same way that God loves us. And it's not. He doesn't just love the world. He doesn't just love you because you're a human being. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Right, right. And general sense, yeah, in a general. [00:21:29] Speaker B: Sense, he actually loves you personally. That's the title of the book. So that we can each individually say he loves me, he loves me. And that changes everything. It really changes your perspective about. About it all. And so the same way that we impact other people is just by loving the people that are right around us. It's not by, I'm going to go in love and I'm going to reach the whole world. I mean, every. You know, it's like, no, I'm just going to love the people that are right around me. And it's this singular focus of that's what I can do today. I don't have to conquer the whole world. [00:22:01] Speaker A: So. Beautiful, man. [00:22:02] Speaker B: So we rest in that for sure. So that pretty much sums up our time together. So thank you, Carl. Always a joy. Talk life.