Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: And this was a revelationary truth for me to, to come to and to recognize and to see. By the grace and the goodness of God, when he opens your eyes to things, you can't unsee it. And so the bottom line is that flesh can be bad. We know that that's easy for most people, but flesh can also be good. And we don't think about that. So that's what we call positive and negative flesh. And man. The reality about positive flesh is that it's our ability really to. To cover what has been hidden for so many years. And we don't want other people to know that. We're afraid if they know, they're going to condemn us or think less of us. Yeah, there's going to be consequences. And so I think a lot of this positive flush stuff that we put on is really just to cover up and again, to cope. Right. Past hurts, past misunderstandings, lies that we have grown to believe about ourselves that are just that, they're lies.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Hello.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: We welcome you back to let's Talk Life. Today marks one year, year of weekly episodes, 52 weeks. An accomplishment that we don't really care that much about.
Yeah, but we care that we get to do this. And we don't see milestones as our identity, but it is something still to celebrate, be joyful about. How do you feel, Carl? About 52 weeks.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's. It's been a blessing to be able to talk life with you and, you know, you think about our live stories, being able to share our stories, being able to talk real life where it's not just you and I, but also opportunity to encourage others in the body of Christ and their journey and hearing from people that were touched by a different topic or a story or vulnerability has, has been. Has been great. And so it's been to hear that, to hear that this is a. A space where we can be vulnerable and honest and open, allow God to work and to share things that have changed us and share things that we're wrestling with. Well, has been. Has been pretty cool.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: What do you think? What do you make of the one year podcast?
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Man? It's kind of shocking. It's kind of unbelievable that it's been a year already and I don't feel like it's been this heavy weight of a burden, you know, and that's what's so great about this whole ministry life of my life, is the ministry. Not that, not the other way around, where ministry is my life and it consumes me and I have to live up to this or that expectation in my mind or in anyone else's mind, because there were weeks that we didn't record, and we were okay with that, you know, and there were other weeks. We did it. Two of them in a week. And so it just is what it is. But it's been a great journey, just like you said, from. From the start.
Just connecting with you. Seeing, first of all, you go through this journey yourself and then jumping on the bandwagon. That's not at all what it was, but just your own encounters.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: Seeing. Seeing the change in you and being like, man, I don't know what that is, but I want it.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: And then recognizing on my own journey. Yeah. Praying that Ephesians prayer, and God really breaking through.
And so that's why there is something that's just really sweet about 52 weeks. Like, we. We made it a year of just talking life together. And it is like we don't have all the answers. We're not here to fix people. We're simply here to talk life. And that means even you and I going, what does this mean? I'm still processing this and coming to understand this, and let's just talk about it. And that's so much more beautiful than.
Than anything. It's really just allowing us to live through us.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Right, Right.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: And it started.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And it started with, you know, two guys who knew each other pretty good. And yet, as. As I mentioned earlier today, just the depth of our relationship.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Through. Through vulnerability. It is. It is through vulnerability that. That. That is endearing to others. I mean. I mean, so to go back to 2019, when. When I'm standing before the church and I am resigning and confessing sin and just basically saying, will you forgive me? Will you love me? Can I take my mask on? Can I take my mask off? Excuse me. And experiencing love and restoration and grace and such an amazing way for the first time ever. Right. That people are loving me, not just the illusion of me. And so being on this journey with you over the last, you know, a couple years, at some point, saying, man, we should record our conversations like this. These are awesome gospel talks. And going through the cure and the rest of the gospel and your grace training as well. That. That.
And so it was okay, right? Let's talk about it.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Absolutely.
And we can't run out of things to talk about. It's like, out of these resources that we have, I share this with people. I've shared it many times. Like, there are three books that I could spend the rest of my life just only teaching those three books. And I would have a full and an effect ministry.
Just, just three resources that I have. That's not to mention the class that I went through and all the stuff that I have there and the many other books, of course, and teachings and other podcasts and all kinds of stuff, you know, mentors and people like yourself and Scott. But also even some of our authors, some of our authors that we can actually get on the phone or send an email to and they'll actually respond and talk to us.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: Right.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: It's such a beautiful thing.
It's a different way to live. So pretty exciting. Well, next week, Lord willing, we're going to record our season premiere.
[00:05:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Season two. We'll see what that looks like, right?
[00:05:50] Speaker A: That's right. We're going to record it in person right here in Venice, Florida. That's our. That's our plan. And sometimes planes come together and we love it when they do, and we also love it if they don't.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's a different way to live, Zach. I mean, listen, and I, and I keep telling people all the time, like, we still experience hurt, we still experience pain. Right. But the pressure to perform.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: Pressure to try and please.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: Gone.
So. So living out of. Right. Living out of who?
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Crisis.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: I don't think I could say it enough, and I know you agree with that. We can never say it enough.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Who we are in Christ is our truest self.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. For sure. Today's topic is understanding flesh. And. And it relates because even the first couple of questions just to ponder is how have you understood flesh before? And then the comparison is, how do you understand flesh today? And I think that knowing who you are in Christ or not knowing who you. Or not living out of who you are in Christ, even though you're still in Christ, it doesn't mean you're always living.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: Knowing that reality, but depending on your understanding, really changes to your understanding of the flesh. And so definitely my understanding of flesh is completely different now than it was before. So how do you want to even tackle that? Carl, do you want to answer something?
[00:07:21] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, usually we would say, well, here's flesh. Right. And. And for those who are not on video, I'm just touching my skin like that. That's what flesh is. And because I know that when I die, my spirit goes to, you know, heaven and my body stays here and something happens at the resurrection body where everything's joined together and I don't know what any of that looks like. And so that's, that's what I would say. It's like, you know, just this, you know, it's sinful, sinful flesh. You know, sinful flesh, but not really.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Understand.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah, it's all right.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: That's all. You understood it before because I used the niv.
Yep, yep. That's exactly.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: Simple nature. I had a simple nature. I know you talked about it before, but.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I was going to talk about it again. You beat me to the punch.
No, I mean. Well, that's. That's exactly what it was. It was a misunderstanding. I like what you said. It's our physical flesh. This is the makeup of who I am. But I would say that I always just thought, oh, flesh is just sin. Flesh was me living from my sinful nature because I erroneously believed that I had a sinful nature.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: And thanks to the NIV Bible. And so believing that, believing I have a sinful nature, it's actually causes me to live even more so out of the flesh. Because now I have to jump on this treadmill of striving, attempting to battle against the sinful nature. And it's such a foolish. It's futile in the end because I'm fighting something that actually doesn't even exist.
I'm attempting to do something that is already done. So this is the reality. This is what I really. Even as I pondered that question and was thinking, thinking it through, the flesh really begins to consume you at that level. It's the. It's the devil's antics. It's his ploy. We can spend. And we were on track to do this, you and I both, to spend a whole lifetime just living in the flesh, battling these things on our own, when in reality.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: The work has already been done. It's the finished work of Christ. He declared it is finished for that very reason. And so, yeah, that was my. My look at it too, was just so.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: So how do you understand it today? Yeah, no, that's good. Very helpful. But how do you. How do you understand it today? How do you understand the flesh today?
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah, Scripturally, I see it completely different. Even Paul talks about it as walking according to, or walking after the flesh. It's basically going our own way. So it's really, it's, it's. It's like as a teenager, you. You fought for or you looked forward to the day when you had independence. And the thing that really brought true rest and healing and victory in my life was stepping into dependence.
[00:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: And realizing that I don't need to do all this on my own.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: So I don't have to go on on my own way, find my own journey, get there on my own. It's just I can trust God.
So, I mean, it looks like a lot of different things. There's a lot of different aspects even to answering that question. It really is everything that we talk about here.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: That's the flip side of understanding it now. But how would you look at it, Carl? Then we'll go into some quotes and some other things that actually, I think, well, just keep talking.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: I mean, that might be very helpful. I. I know that it's made up of everything in my life. You know, it's my experiences, it's my habits, it's my roots. It's things that, apart from God, that, that have accumulated. And there's something about me, right, that, that there's something that, that's not redeemed. That when we receive Christ as our Savior, when we, by faith we trust in Jesus only, that it would be great if it was just gone. But Romans 7 tells me there's still something there, you know, so. Yeah, so that's not being able to define it very well, but I know we have some quotes here that can help us out there.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Leela Faber. He says, flesh is all that I am, as I operate apart from Christ. And so I, coming out of that, even wrote a question as why.
Why would I operate apart from Christ? Like, I don't want that. I don't think anybody wants that. Right. Even back before we understood what we see and understand now, we didn't want that, but we were doing it. We were in the middle of it, but we didn't know it, but we didn't want that. It was, it wasn't on our mouth. Like we. Yeah, we just want to operate apart from Christ. But it's exactly how I was operating. Well, those are tough words to say because I wasn't separated. I wasn't. Like there was this distancing. It's just. I didn't, I didn't.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Well, sure. What am I leaning on? Yeah, Am I aware? Right. Am I dependent? What am I trusting in?
[00:12:17] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:12:18] Speaker B: There is a. There is a wrestling, there is a struggle. Go ahead.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: For sure.
Well, I was just, just coming off of that question. Why would I operate. Sorry, that's my microphone. Why would I operate apart from Christ?
And I think the easiest way to sum that up is to say to cope. Like, there's, there's this past and then there's this present. In order for me to look the part or be the person that I want to be, I need to put on the rest of the gospel. Damn stone talks about externals. Got to put on all these externals to look.
To look the part to appear like a godly man. And in the end, I'm not godly by what I put on externally. You know, I have been made righteous internally. And so truly, the knowing of that is what helps me to not just cope with past hurts and pains and go back to our stories. Right. But now I can actually recognize that, man, those things don't shape me internally. I'm a new creation in Christ and it really changes everything. So.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, and so, so I would like you to talk about the flesh when it, when it comes to positive, is that a good transition?
[00:13:44] Speaker A: It is. No, it's perfect because this was, you know, my word is revelationary, and this was a revelationary truth for me to, to come to and to recognize and to see by the grace and the goodness of God, when he opens your eyes to things, you can't unsee it. And so the bottom line is that flesh can be bad. We know that that's easy for most people, but flesh can also be good. And we don't think about that. So that's what we call positive and negative flesh. And man, the reality about positive flesh is that it's our ability really to cover what has been hidden for so many years. And we don't want other people to know that. We're afraid if they know, they're going to condemn us or think less of us. Yeah, there's going to be consequences. And so I think a lot of this positive flesh stuff that we put on is really just to cover up and to cope. Right. Past hurts, past misunderstandings, lies that we have grown to believe about ourselves that are just that, their lives. But yeah, when it comes to positive flesh, I mean, I, we, we kind of covered a list and I don't remember where I found that list. Is it in my paperwork? Let me, let me just listen.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: Well, negative flesh. Negative flesh is very simple, right? I mean, it's like when I, when I say simple. Oh, yeah, we all agree on this, right?
You know, like the glisten Galatians 5, sexual morality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions made, drunkenness, orgies, things like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, those are bad. Those are, those are, those are, those are, those are bad things.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: But what about what we think is actually good.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Operating out of our own system, not out of. Operating out of a trust. In the Father's oath, what would those things.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: Things were quite this. This is really crucial for believers to understand. And we're not the ones maybe to bring that revelation, but at least we can stir people to thinking, that's right.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: And that wets your appetite. Or if it frustrates you, it's like, talk to God and. And he'll. He'll answer, he'll speak. Beautiful, beautiful. Ephesians 1:17. You know, God gave a spirit of wisdom and revelation that we may know and understand this truth. Because here's. Here's just a list.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Of positive flesh, trying harder, pleasing others, walking on eggshells. Being a churchaholic, being a perfectionist, being legalistic, being never wrong. I mean, the list goes on and on. That's the list that I use, or I have. I guess I don't necessarily always use it.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: But the list goes on and on. And I usually. Especially when I'm working with somebody that's coming out of a church context, I stick with that churchaholic thing. I don't call it that. I just say positive flushes. I have to be involved at this level. You know, I need to go to church every single week. If I don't, I'm. I'm backsliding. I need to go to Bible study. I need to be involved. I need to serve, I need to give. I need. I need all these different things. And that's all in reality, that is all positive flesh. And this is, you know, in a modern church world, that's a heretical statement.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: So.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: But we're throwing that out there to say that ultimately, let's go back to Lee Lefaber's quote, even flesh is all that I am as I operate, apart from Christ. Am I. Am I closer to God because I'm reading His Word? Am I closer to God because I'm attending church or Bible study? Am I closer to God because I'm serving Him?
No. I'll never be any closer by what I do. And I'll never be any further away by what I do either.
And so when it comes to that understanding, then we realize that all that stuff is just. Is flesh.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And I think a verse that's helped me tremendously. And even talking with you a second ago.
Well, I guess over 19 minutes ago, you used a different word, and I thought that was good. Even better. Whatever does not proceed from Faith. So. Romans 14. Yeah, sorry. Romans 14:23. Whatever does not come from faith. Sin. And you added, said, I like that word trust there. So whatever does not proceed from me trusting. Right. God is sin.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: Yes. And so that's what we're. That's what we're getting at. We're not saying that attending a Bible study is always flesh. We're not saying that attending church or any of that is, is.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Is sinful teaching in a church or. But whatever.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: What we are saying is you can do all of those things in the flesh.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: And that's the reality. And that is happening. And even in the flesh.
Were we talking to somebody that said, you can bang your head against the wall and get good results? I think it seems like that was Scott or maybe that was somebody else. We can bang our head against the wall and we can get results that way. So painful. It's a. It's a painful way to do it. But that's basically what we're doing in the flesh is we're just trying harder.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: So here's an example. I'm being self reliant.
[00:18:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Self sufficient.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: 100.
[00:18:52] Speaker B: I'm believing that I'm mission critical, not Jesus.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: So. So how does that play out? Well, manipulation, control.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Fix it mode. Yeah. Oh, we see it. Right. The backbiting and gossip and the division pride.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: And it's like, you know, unfortunately, you know, there's context where those are the people that are saying, hey, those are our leaders. Those are leaders of churches or ministries or denominations or whatever. You're like, I mean, once you step out of it, you say, what is going on here? Because I'm looking at this and saying, whatever does not come from faith is sin. I've said this many times. I'll say it till I die. When I was pastoring a church in New Jersey, there was nobody. Every month in our board meetings, there was nobody. That was the decisions we made. None of them were from faith. No.
They were all fear based.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: Control, manipulation.
Including my own.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: And so it's like, man, how much of life, how much of the decisions you make, how many. The. The conversations we have, they're not based out of faith, they're based out of fear.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. So true.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: That's positive flesh. Because you can get results. You can get results. You can packed houses. You can get a lot of people coming. Oh, yeah, you can get results.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: I call it the demon of results. The devil is really crafty and making us, convincing us, making us think that we are doing good. We got it together. We're all right. And in reality it's, we're operating not out of dependence on God, we're really living in independence. And that was the beginning of the fall. You know, Adam and Eve were in walking, in fellowship, in full dependence in this incredible relationship. And the second they sins, they were now living in independence. They want to do it themselves. And that's ultimately what flesh is. Like you said self sufficiency, self reliance, self protection. I have this list here too. Self promotion. All those things biblically are called walking after or walking according to. Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: And here's what's so crazy, because I know in your notes you want to get these verses and we probably don't have time for them. Yeah, but we all in the church as pastors, we all look at Paul's conversion and say, well, he substituted it, he gave up those things, but I don't see it in myself.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: So Paul's saying, hey, I gave up all these things in the birthright, who I belong to, who I studied under all these things. And we're like, yeah, yeah, that's great, Paul, because he turned to Christ and yet we can do the same thing. Sure, do the same thing. Right.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: So I, I will disclose this out with just sharing these verses because the most valuable thing you and I have done and can continue to do in this most valuable thing anybody listening can do is just ask God. Open up the Word and ask God for revelation, because it's him that's bringing it, not us. Yes, but here are the things. This is Philippians chapter 34 to 14. This is positive looking flesh. So just read through that, spend time soaking that in and ask for the wisdom, the negative flesh, like we already said, really easy to identify. There are, there are not just in Galatians 5, but there's other passages that give you a list of things. So we just, we know what those are, but you can still read to those. But continuing on, In Galatians chapter five 22 to 25, we have the fruit of the Spirit. Truly that's, that's the Spirit. That's not us living according to the flesh. But that's Right.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: The manifestation of us trusting God, living from who we are in Christ. And that's the result is that I have joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
And it's amazing. It doesn't cause us to be sinless, but it does cause us to sin less. And that's the reality of God's love and his grace. And it's amazing. So over and out 52 weeks talking life, it's been a blessing.
