Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The voice of fear and the voice of shame can be so much louder because God is very gentle and patient and loving, and he's not screaming in our ear to go do this or do that. So if we're getting caught up in fear and frustration and shame, I mean, those are gonna be really loud, and we're gonna be distracted by those things. Instead of remembering and resting in and
[00:00:24] Speaker B: knowing who we are remembering.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: Hello and welcome, fellow travelers. I love that phrase.
It's a good phrase. I just started doing the Path is the book from True Face. I just started doing that last night with my son.
And that's where I learned that phrase, fellow travelers. And I really like it, you know, because we're traveling through life, learning to live as expressors of Jesus, who is the life, and he's in us. So, yeah, it's a good word.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: I like that word because all throughout scripture, it was always go. It was always go.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: You know, like John, Elvis talks about, it's like, hey, hey, Abraham, go. I want you to go, hey, hey, Jacob, you're going over here. Joseph, you're going over here. You know, Matthew Gospels, it was like, hey, you're going out. We're sending you out.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: And so just the idea of a travel. We're traveling and we're on the same path.
We're on the fellow travelers. Like, we're not. Like Peter said in 1 Peter 5, he says, hey, I'm a co. Shepherd.
I'm a shepherd with you guys, right? We're together.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: It's awesome. Yeah, that's so good. It actually reminds me, too, of the pastor here, Pastor Brett. He. He says, like, you have the great commission. You know, that's another go verse, right? And that's. That's where, yeah, gather this and say, go, go, go. But I love the way that he preaches on that. He says it's not really just to go, like, off to a land or this place, right? It's as you go, as you go. And the first time I heard him say that, I was like, thank you for that clarity, because that's what it is.
As you go, fellow travelers. As we journey through life, as we're just living life, we can learn more and more to be that expressor of Jesus who's the life in us. And that's the life.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: It's so good. So, yeah, today, this episode follow his nudging. Be Misunderstood is the title.
Some great words. Have you ever been misunderstood, Carl?
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd like to start with that first little Phrase, follow his nudging.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Comma, be misunderstood.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: And so let's, before we even talk about the part, tell me about the Follow his nudging.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think that's, that's what leads to being misunderstood a lot of times. Follow his nudging. I mean, that's, that is my whole story and it's always worth repeating, but it's, you know, I just began to pray and God started to, the way that I explained it, as it was happening. And since I guess too, I've always called it just the stirring inside of me that I couldn't explain.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: But just like in the midst of ministry, lots of exciting things happening around me, but there was a stirring to just to resign. And that was, that was God's nudging, you know?
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So. So maybe even could help us. How long does the nudging take place? How long does this turn take place?
[00:03:16] Speaker A: That's a good question.
That's a good question. There's no, there's no pat answer. Right.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: There's no. Right, right.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: It's, it's every one of us, it's going to be as different as our personalities are different.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: So my, my journey was two years of praying that prayer out of Ephesians 1 and praying it very haphazardly, which I've shared before.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Right, right, right. It wasn't even, it wasn't even.
God didn't answer you based on your striving or your earnestness or zeal.
[00:03:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: But because of his faithfulness and his goodness.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, it's so good.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: And the reason I asked about the time, the reason I asked about the time is that, is that we want to see that answer immediately.
[00:03:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: But you can look back and say, wow, God, it was like a two year stirring. It was like a two year nudging, Right?
[00:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so true. So what about you in following the nudging? How have you experienced that or processed that?
[00:04:15] Speaker B: It's like, this is like when, when you have an, when you encounter God, when, when you have an encounter with Christ and his grace and his love and his healing. And you know, we, we see examples like for example, Noah, you know, building, building his great big boat, you know.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: And later, I mean, it's not till we get to the end of the Scriptures where it says that he was preaching to people, like, that's not, that's not in Genesis.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: And so it's like was, was Noah misunderstood, you know? Yeah. Why is he building this big thing where you Know, is he going on a cruise? You know, and so it's like God, how about Shamgar? You know, just like a one verse thing in Judges. I'll never forget.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:56] Speaker B: That the guy that came to chapel when we were at college and preached the whole sermon in one verse and he took an ox go and he slayed hundreds of Philistines. It's like, well, shouldn't, you know, it's like David, shouldn't he take the sword? You know, and it's like Gideon. Right. It's like Joshua just all throughout scripture, people misunderstood, but they follow God.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: And so it's like, okay, God, wow, what you say about me more important than what someone else says?
[00:05:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: And I think that's the, that's the question God, does what you say about me, does it weigh more right now? We quickly say, of course it does. But man, when you're in it, there's gossip and slander and lies.
It causes you sometimes to say, whoa, whoa, what's going on here? Or, or, or frustration or we want to fight back or, you know, all those things. Are the flesh sure. That, that, that, that actually this isn't that fight, but.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I think misunderstood is, is part of this trusting Jesus life.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. It's like the, the voice of fear and the voice of shame can be so much louder than. Because God is, is just, he's very gentle and patient and loving and he's not screaming in our ear to go do this or do that. So if we're getting caught up in fear and frustration and shame, I mean, those are going to be really loud and we're going to, we're going to be distracted by those things instead of remembering and resting in and knowing who we are remembering.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: So, yeah, interesting. So the second half. What about that? Misunderstood. Do we have anything further?
[00:06:34] Speaker B: Oh, I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's fascinating because it's. When you're, when you're attacked, you know, you know, going back to my. What's, what's my main default? I want to please everyone. That's, that's like a story of my Life. And in 2020, when my life crashes, 2019, my life crashes. And in 2020 I go to a men's intensive for sex addiction. And it's, and it's, you know, 60% are pastors and, and I remember the counselor saying to me, carl, you have to be willing to disappoint people. And I'm looking at him and I'm thinking, no way, dude. I can make everybody happy because that's for my life. That's a story trying to please everybody and a terrible way to live that God's freeing me from.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: And so, you know, I'm learning how to disappoint people and let people down and be okay with it. Now I don't want to be a jerk. I don't want to be, you know.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Deceitful and jerk. But yeah, it's, it's.
I wanted everyone to understand and it was hard for me to come to grips the fact that some people don't care, some people don't like you and what are you going to do? And so that's been a hard thing because I want to make everyone understand, but it's not up to me. So that's been very freeing to go back to that first question is that God, is what you say about me real? Is it truth? Right. Philippians 4, 8 says what? Think about these things. Whatever's true and honorable and praiseworthy. Excellent. Well, if I'm a child of God and if he's given me everything that I need for life and godliness and I've. I'm an inherit, you know, I'm a co heir.
Oh, yeah. Then this is what I need to meditate upon. Not. Not what other people say about me or slander about me or gossip on me or lie about me.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:22] Speaker B: Because it's not real.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: And he's. He is the supreme word.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: My life.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: And that's beautiful.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: I don't know if that's so what you were looking at.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Just whatever, you know, whatever comes to
[00:08:35] Speaker B: your mind, if you wanted some examples.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: It's, it's your story to share. And I think it's just so relatable because I think, yeah, we step into things that are really misunderstood by other people. And that's, you know, exactly how. How I feel too. Like, you know, just even in recent days, days down here being misunderstood and people have opinions and they like to spread things and it's like, well, okay, you know, whatever. And so am I gonna. Am I gonna trust the truth or am I gonna, you know, believe these lies? And that's always what's in front of us. And I, I think, you know, when, when like probably my biggest step of misunderstoodness and yeah. Following God's nudging was resigning from church and a pastor. And it's like, okay. The really wild part about that is that I understood me. Like, I didn't even know why.
I didn't even know why I was residing.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: That's really good, Zach.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: I. I would have said I did. I had a list of things that, you know, this is why. This is where I'm going. I'm excited about this, but I really didn't know. But it was really. Because ministry was my life, and I was never gonna see that. My life was the ministry.
That's really something just to pick apart and process. But God pulled me out in order for me to see it. And ministry as life really kept me bound and believing, really, this illusion of separation, it kept me bound to thinking I had to fight this fight on my own. And life as ministry really puts God and myself in proper perspective to realize, well, I am the victor. I've already overcome because Christ in me has overcome, and together in union, we're overcomers. And so it's a whole different way to process life and to be able to give life to other people.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: It's pretty exciting, but it's very misunderstood.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: And. And Zach, as far as I know, you're fully human. Is that right? Yeah. You're still. You're still a man. Yeah.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: So this is important. Does it hurt?
[00:10:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: Does it hurt?
[00:10:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's got that sting still, you know, when you. When you're disappointed by people or spoken against or whatever.
But I still liken it to the same thing that I've shared many times of coming to my office and saying, oh, like a fear grips me or something, like, I don't know what I'm doing. What does this look like? And it's the same thing when you. When you're hurt. It's like, this is kind of like, boy, kind of a smack, kind of a gut punch. And then right away, I kind of almost. It's almost like. It's just a shift. Like, you just turn and you just.
You turn towards the truth to just. Okay, I remember this. And God is right there saying, yeah, you're okay.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Don't worry about what they're saying.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Right. And.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: And it's so. And you get there so much faster when you know who you are.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Yes. Isn't that great? Like. Like things that might have taken you out for, like, for me. I was just say me things that would have taken me out for maybe two weeks.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: You know, maybe. Maybe it's 15 minutes now.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: You know, like. Like just recently, some. Some. Some.
Some questions addressed to me that. That were. That were full of lies from things going back seven years ago in New Jersey. And. And I'm sitting there going Wait a minute. What's. Like, what is this?
[00:11:49] Speaker A: And, yeah.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: And you start to say, God, what. What are you. What are we doing here? And. And it was like. It was like Jesus was just reminding me, if this is what they're going to say and this is what they're going to do, what is that to you? You follow me. And just that recurring John 21 of Jesus saying, hey, are you going to keep following me? Are you going to keep trying? Are you going to go back to your old sufficiency? And so, you know, reliant.
And. And it's like, all right, Jesus, you're right. Like, you're right. And sometimes I smile and chuckle.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:20] Speaker B: You know, because if it's like, I can clearly see it's the enemy this time. I didn't smile and chuckle until Jesus brought me back to that place of like, hey, are you going to follow? Like, you follow me? Like, that's it. You just follow me. And if people want to misunderstand, if people want to misalign, if people want to attack, if people want to be full of lies, if people want to try. And that's what they did to Jesus. Right? That's, that's, that's what they, that's what we see the religious people doing to Jesus. And it's like, okay, yeah, and in this life, you will have.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Trouble. You will have tribulations, but be of good courage. I have overcome the world. He who is in me is greater than he who's in the world. And that's what's fascinating is when the. This is. You're talking about people in the church, you know, the, the building, you know.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Is. Is. Is what I'm talking about, what you're talking about, Right?
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: And it's like, same, same answer. Trust. Trust God. He's got you.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Always.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: It's.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: It's such a place to rest and to man, just live in that rest.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: So.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: It's so beautiful. And I, I sent you this.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: This image. You know, and I don't. I just love it. So I pulled a couple of quotes out of this, and that's why I'm bringing that up. And you can go wherever else you want with it, but Wayne Jacobson has, you know, been one of our favorite authors for sure. And we, of course, got to hang out with him for a little bit when we were. When he was in Florida, when you were down here as well. And. But this is just a couple of things. But. Yeah, he says this. People, especially those who care about you often want the same thing for you, that your flesh does whatever is comfortable, safe and satisfying. I just thought that was really interesting. I'm just going to go on with the next one too. He says this in the same little writing. Too often you'll find your well meaning friends calling you back to the broader road, thinking they're helping you to follow God. Don't be fooled. Follow his nudging in your heart, even if that means you will be misunderstood. And that's where the title of the whole thing comes from. Wow, it's so interesting, isn't it?
It's like because well meaning friends, I mean people that really do care about you. Yeah, but what do they really want?
Like there's, there is a reason why you, when you get married, right. You separate from your family and you go and you, you have your life
[00:14:38] Speaker B: where you're supposed to.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: You're supposed to, you're supposed to, you're supposed to leave your father, mother and cleave to his wife.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: The two shall be one flesh. And that was part of my understanding is, is saying, wow, been married for all these years and I didn't, didn't really leave and cleave. It was like leave, leave and still hang on to stuff.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Bring stuff in which we all bring stuff into marriages.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: But understanding like, oh yeah, this is, this isn't actually what scripture's saying.
[00:15:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: So I had to learn the hard way. Yeah.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Right. Right. So yeah, I mean it's just so interesting because what, what people really want and what we oftentimes even pray for is very self focused prayers of God. Change my circumstances, change this thing that's
[00:15:23] Speaker B: in front of me. Right.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: Just take, take away this hardship. And it's like, well, what if the hardship is the very thing that God is using to really speak into your life, to bring you to a point of I need to trust God. And that's really.
Circumstance is the only thing that really bring us there. If everything is going well, then I don't need to trust God as much. And, and so it's just really interesting to, to process through all that.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I want to share, I want to share a little bit more from that.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Page, Page you sent me.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Paul knew that walking with an eye to the approval of others will always take you from the reality of his kingdom. Jesus said the same thing. He said to take stock when men speak well of you, for that's how they treat false prophets.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Rather he told them you are blessed when people lie, insult and exclude you. Because of your obedience to him.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: And I think that. I think that one of these things is, like, we only understand manipulation and control and fix.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: In the. In the American church. And I just say American church because I'm not familiar with international church, but I don't think it's exclusive. But that's all we know is try and control or fix or manipulate. And so when you win. Think about this, Zach. Think about it even in your own context, when you stop allowing yourself to be manipulated or controlled or fixed.
[00:16:44] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Then people have. Have turned on me.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: I'll just use me. They've turned on me. And then, and then, and then. And then I've seen. I've seen it. So. So I think that that's interesting of. Am I trying to win the approval of human beings?
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: Or am I following Jesus?
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Jesus, right. Yep. Yeah. It's beautiful. Galatians 1:10. And even that. That verse today just kind of blew me up, if that's the right way to say it. It just blew up in my face. I don't know.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: But just. Just so amazing because while there. There's just. There's important. Even punctuation in sentences, you know, how. How punctuation can change a whole sentence. And I love that verse specifically, am I not trying to win the approval of men?
Comma. And that comma kind of makes it say, am I also trying to win the approval of God? And it's like, the answer is no to both of those. But I wouldn't have always perceived it that way. I would have read that as, am I trying to read, you know, win the approval of men or of God? Like, it's either one or the other. That's how I would have processed it. And that wasn't the right way to process it. And so it's so neat to. To be able to. From a new covenant. My new heart.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: Understanding who I am in Christ. Coming back to some of these verses and understanding it properly, and it just. It's. It's like reading the Bible. It's like. It's like getting saved all over again. It's like reading the Bible for the first time all over again. And it means something. It's like, that's every single day with God. When you're really able to live from this new heart, which is in. Which is in victory, which is in freedom, which is in, you know, being healed and feeling healed and trusting. It's like.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: And. And using your word, being in rest. Right.
Being in rest and at rest and. And I would like to ask this other question of the notes because I think this is a good question.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: Does following God's nudging, maybe we're going a little backwards, but I think that's okay.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: No, it's fine.
[00:18:41] Speaker B: Does it mean asking people for advice?
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: And I would answer that by saying, man, when you have a trusted brother, like I think about the relationship with you or the relationship I have with other guys, especially older guys, that have life experiences and wisdom from their own life.
And so following God's name for me doesn't mean I'm going to totally do what you tell me to do.
But when you have someone you trust to come to say, hey, I'm thinking about this, can we talk about it? Can we process this? Can we explore this? I think that's the beauty of the body of Christ.
And so that's one way I would answer it. How would you? Just one way. It doesn't mean it's the only way. How would you answer that?
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Well, for one, completely agree with you.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: And this is what's so beautiful about the freedom that you have in the body of Christ too, is that I can share something with you. But I also know that you're free to do whatever you want to do. And if you don't do what I think you should do, I'm okay with that. So there's freedom on both ends.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: But yeah, so my answer to it is yes and no.
Do you go to other people for advice? Yes and no. I'm not just going to say outright no, because that's not good advice you got. You gotta have people in your life that you're able to communicate and talk to.
But I would say it would be like a really hard no for me. What people are sharing is really basically control. You know, if. If you're. If you're in a controlling situation and somebody just wants to control you, then that's not a person I'm going to go to to ask for advice about what's my next step here? What am I doing? But I think that is very valuable. I'm just looking back at my own, My own life in the.
In the last five years of making huge decisions. You know, I started to pray that prayer five years ago, and God opened my eyes. That stirring began to happen, and that brought me to a point of resignation. Well, I didn't, I didn't talk to anybody about that resignation until it was about time for that to happen. It was only a matter of a couple of months that that conversation was even happening before I was done, I was resigned. And it's the same thing a year later when I moved the whole family to Florida. And it was like, well, that doesn't even make sense. I know nobody down here for ministry sake, for. For anything.
So a lot of it didn't make sense. And I asked nobody about it. Obviously, my wife and I are talking about all these things along the way because that's, you know, who you need to be talking to.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: Because it affects those people. But I wasn't taught. I wasn't getting advice from other people. I was literally at a point of just. I. I needed to, at that time in that season to rely on and trust in God, and I was learning from him for the first time to actually rely and trust in God.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: And so I love it. I love it. So the answer isn't always just a no to that question.
You do use the people around you for advice and you do talk to them about stuff.
But, yeah, just like what you're saying, like, you don't have to listen.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: Right. And. And I think that even our little example here is a great point that, that we quickly want to go to other people, and instead of going to God. Right. We. We want to go hear what other people have to say.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah, Right.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Because I want them to agree with me or that. Want them to say what I think and God, what do you say?
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: You know, God, what do you say about this? God, I want to hear from you and just sit in it.
[00:22:03] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: You know, that nudge for you, two years, you know? Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: It doesn't. Doesn't mean that this isn't a model that says, oh, do what Zach did or do what Carl did. Yeah, but.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: I just. God's a creative God and he. He works with each one of us in a unique, special way. Right?
[00:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah. That's so beautiful. It's a. It's a good place to be. It's exactly where God wants us to be.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Right. And so. So then the next thing is. All right, the next time I misunderstood, I'm sending you a text.
And so. So I want to go from 15 minutes to five minutes.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Right.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: Am I willing. So are we willing to be misunderstood for Christ? You know, and just. I just love it. I just love that we have the freedom, the courage.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:22:49] Speaker B: To. To walk this life out.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Being willing to be misunderstood. I've seen. I've seen people who misunderstood me seven years ago or one of. One of my, you know, our closest friends yeah. So I just think Jesus is so beautiful and what he does in this journey of life, that we're fellow travelers on this path, that He. He does more than we can ask or imagine.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: It's awesome. Sweet. That's. Let's talk life. And it's a wrap for today. Thank you, brother.
