Ep. 77 The Mess of Not Knowing

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What happens when I don't know I'm a new creation in Christ? Comparison comes into play. Like, so I'm looking at other people thinking, man, why do they have it so well together? And why can't I be that way? Why am I not as disciplined or as godly or as holy? Those are all things that would have gone through my mind. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Wow. And compared. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Once you step into. Yeah, once you step into truly knowing who you are in Christ, it's like, I don't need to compare myself with anybody else. No, they are who they are and I'm who I am, and I'm confident who I am in Christ and I can live from there. I'm not trying to obtain something. Just like you said, it's not about merit anymore. I'm actually coming to know and renew my mind into the truth of who I am in Christ. And while it changes everything. Hi there. We welcome you to our little podcast here. Let's talk life. There's nothing in the world like living at rest. I wrote those words down, I don't know, 10 to 14 days ago. And better stated would be this, though. There's nothing in the world like living from rest, because I don't always feel at rest. But how I feel, you know, that's not my true identity. It's not truly where I'm at. I'm able to live from rest because I am at rest. I am at rest because I know God and I know I'm a new creation in Christ. And that's the truth about where I'm at. The feelings. You know, we use that feelings wheel. I have it sitting right next to me. I'm sure you have it handy. Maybe not right now, Carl, but feelings are. They're not good. They're not bad. They just are. Feelings are real, but they don't always point you to what's real, but they're important to process through. So I don't know how you feel about that, but that's my introduction from man. [00:01:48] Speaker B: What's. What's your life been like? Man, in the last. Speaking of feelings. Yeah. What's your life been like? [00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been. [00:01:55] Speaker B: As we talk life, sure. [00:01:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been quite a whirlwind. I say that a lot, but it's always like a good whirlwind. Just busy. And kid, life is always busy. But we were up in Michigan, the whole family, this last weekend, and I was there with my two boys for seven days total. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Nice. [00:02:15] Speaker A: And then my wife, Ina, came up with the baby for The. For a long weekend, so got to see all the family all in one place. [00:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:24] Speaker A: So that was kind of a big purpose for picking that week because we knew there was a graduation open house of my niece and just getting to connect with everybody. So. Yeah, you go on vacation with kids and you come back needing a vacation. [00:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I love what we said even earlier, you know, before the show. Well, it's not really a show. It's just we're recording our conversation that the being at rest, living from the rest. Living from the rest of Christ is in me right now, right now, fully complete. That you can go on a purposeful trip and not have to figure out what am I doing every moment of every day, or I need to do this and this. And it's that, God, whatever. Whatever happens, God that you are, you're here already. And so it really changes the old way, which is more performance mindset of. I need to make sure I see this. These people, and make sure they still think of me with respect or wisdom. You know, it's like, no, no, I. I can. I'm. I'm at rest already. I'm at rest in who Christ says I am. I'm at rest in who he is. And. And so this is how it can. This is how it looks, guys. I mean, this is. This is how it looks that Zach can go back home and just be present with those around him and who God brings into your life. And I don't know if you want to say any more about that. [00:03:45] Speaker A: No, I mean, I think it's beautiful because even when. When Ina came so for the weekend, because of all the business too, we. We pulled ourselves out of my sister's basement where we normally stay, and we just got a hotel with a little water park and pool and stuff for the kids to have some fun. And. And right next door is this brand new, beautiful second campus to this church that's out in Holland area. [00:04:07] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:04:07] Speaker A: Sunday morning, it was like, well, do we just walk over and check it out? And it was like, nah, I'm okay. And it's like that was a whole different mindset than ever, because it was almost like even before I went down to wherever I was going on vacation, it was like, I'm looking up a place and this is where we're gonna go. And it was like on the schedule. And this time it was like, I'm okay. I'm okay. Because it was. Because I was watching tennis and I just continued. And it's like. And that's okay. And I Never would have said that before. And that's. That's where I'm able to live from rest, is that, hey, this is just a different weekend. We don't always have a time away, and let's just. Let's just hang out. We went down at the hotel and had breakfast, and on my iPad, I was playing a tennis match, and we were just, you know, there with the kids, eating, watching some sports and playing little cars and stuff on the table. And I was like, this is. This is great. So, yeah, and sometimes I do go. Sometimes I have, you know, that. That connection and that desire to go and connect. And there's. There's plenty of ministry that I have in Michigan that I could have gone to a lot of places, but we went nowhere. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Right. And I think, like, I think that's important to. To say that, like, you went to love on your family. Like, you went to celebrate your family, went to support your family. And, yeah, as a pastor or a missionary minister, listening to this, oftentimes we say, well, that's not enough. I need to go do this, this, this as well. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:05:38] Speaker B: And it's like, actually just sitting with your mom and dad, sitting with your sister, sitting with your niece, nephews, your grandma, like, that's. That is. That is enough. Yeah, that is enough. Because you're. You're at rest. [00:05:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, it's a great place to be, and it's really where God wants us to be, is just resting and trusting him every step of the way. So, yeah, it's so, so cool. And. And this. This. This is where. I mean, it really. All of this really flows right into our topic for today, which is. I titled it the Mess of Not Knowing. [00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:15] Speaker A: And I love. I love this statement from Paul. And it's not even something that I'm pulling out of. It's not something I have in our notes, but Paul oftentimes says in his letters, yeah, do you not know? And do you not know? It's like, why. Why did he say that so much? I'm not going there too much with the podcast, because I am trying to write something on this. [00:06:38] Speaker B: Yeah, gotcha. All right. [00:06:40] Speaker A: So that's why. But at the same time, it's still something that, you know, off the top of our heads. We can just share whatever comes to mind. And I think we make a mess of our lives because of not knowing. And so that's kind of where we're starting. And I just have these three questions. I'll throw all of them out and you can just, you know, shoot out whatever one you want to, Carl. But just for the listener, these three questions just to ponder. What happens when, I don't know, I'm a new creation in Christ? What happens, number two, when I have a skewed view of God and myself? And thirdly, what happens when I live in unbelief and maybe even what is unbelief? You know, that could be a topic in and of itself. I guess. So I don't know if that connects with you, Carl, if you have a place you want to go with those questions. [00:07:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, what happens when. I don't know. I mean, historically, you know, when. When I don't know that I'm a new creature in Christ, then I'm. That I'm actually. I've replaced God with myself. And I am trying to earn something he's already trying to give me. And you could even say, well, he. He actually already has given it to me and I'm unaware of it. I'm. I'm made a mess because I don't know. Yeah. I'm ignorant. You know, how many times does Paul use the word ignorant? You know, as well, right? And so when I. How about this? How about the difference between knowing and living? You know, for. Because for me, it's the same. Because if I know something, then, you know, truth doesn't transform unless it's trusted, as Bill Thraw likes to say. So truth doesn't transform man. I would have preached that a billion times. Truth, you know, the truth sets you free. No, it's only when I trust it. Will it set me free. So I can forget. I can forget I'm a new creation. I can forget I'm a new creature in Christ. And I need you. I need others to remind me. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:35] Speaker B: Of who I really am and. [00:08:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:37] Speaker B: So when we sin, it's like it's temporary insanity. It's like I've forgotten that I'm. That I'm beloved. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:45] Speaker B: You know, and if. One more verse, and then I'm going to turn it back on you. First John 3. John says, can't you see how much the Father loves you? That's my paraphrase. He says, behold or see how much the Father has lavished his love on you. I mean, that. That's amazing. I mean, I could sit in that verse for a year, you know, just thinking about it every day. How much he loves me. Wow. How about you? Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:11] Speaker A: He lavishes his love on us. I mean. Yeah. I think it's been Interesting, because within the church context here in Florida and all the stuff that we've gone through, which has been ups and downs and we're kind of finally stepping into a place of just being at rest and being able to just teach Christ as life. And it's been really a joy, but along the way. It hasn't always been a joy along the way. [00:09:35] Speaker B: That's a great phrase too, along the way. Go ahead. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Because we're kind of like labeled as being in this grace camp and being, you know, these, I don't know, there's all kinds of different words that, that people try to cast on us because they're basically kind of saying that grace isn't enough. And to say that is to say that Jesus isn't enough. In my mind, that's how I look at it. Because grace is, is the person of Jesus. [00:10:00] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:10:01] Speaker A: But I, I, I've really personally, and try, I, I try always to not use grace, the word grace all the time with everything. I really do go back to just like what you're saying, God's love. Because God so loved that he sent grace. You know, like the starting point really is his love. And he does lavish it on us and it's just very, very, very beautiful. And not knowing, wow. Not knowing how loved we are. I mean, that was my perspective forever. Growing up in the church and going to Bible college, serving in the church. [00:10:35] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:36] Speaker A: I always thought, yeah, I'm good with Jesus, but God is scary and I got to just stay behind Jesus, otherwise God is going to bring his wrath in my life because I'm a, because I'm a sinner. That's how I always just viewed everything. That's a really sad place to live. But all of, all of that, realistically, I mean, the truth is that was the mess that I was in in my thinking. And I was in that mess, which created more mess because I was trying to fix myself. I was trying to get out of it. And it was all because I didn't know. I didn't know I was a new creation. I didn't know that I had a skewed view of God and I had a skewed view of myself. And so therefore I was really living in unbelief. [00:11:17] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Living in unbelief and not, not even knowing it. Thinking, thinking I was living in faith, thinking I was living, right? Thinking I was living, thinking about, thinking, thinking I was living the narrow way. [00:11:28] Speaker A: Right? [00:11:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. [00:11:29] Speaker A: Yeah. With all the best of intentions. [00:11:32] Speaker B: With all the best intentions and the [00:11:34] Speaker A: reality is you can be in that room of good intentions if we use language from the Cure, you know, kind of a flagship book probably for you and I, at least for sure. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:11:45] Speaker A: Everybody's got their own thing that captured their attention for us, that book and, and that language is just so perfect because yeah, I was living in that room of good intentions and it all seems really good. It all seems like it's the right thing. But in the end it's really, it's really lifeless. [00:12:01] Speaker B: It is lifeless. And even to, to go back to that first question for a second, if I don't know I'm a new creation, then either I, I think I need to earn it, work for it, I can still. Or, or this is what, this is what we do too. Right? As I still identify as a center. So, so, so I use, you know, humor or self, you know, deflection. Oh, we're just a sinner saved by grace. And so we're identifying right as, as still being an Adam, you know, is a phrase that you say. It's like you're an Adam or you're in Christ, you know, and so that, that's a mess. So if I say I'm, I'm still a sinner, then, then I'm saying God's grace hasn't restored, redeemed or, or made me whole. Made me life. Made me life, which is a phrase I like death to life. And so that's a mess. That's a mess because I can go to church every week, I can preach sermons every week. I do all, all these things. And if I identify as someone who doesn't know the Father and his love, then that's a mess. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's a lot of people that are a mess. That's my whole mentality is equipping, equipping the saints. It's like just equip the saints to know who they are in Christ and know who God is and that God is love and that he loves them. And not just that, but he also likes them. Like that was pretty earth shaking for me to actually recognize and understand and trust. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:32] Speaker A: Just even going back to just what you were saying and that first question, what happens when I don't know I'm a new creation in Christ? Comparison comes into play. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Yes. [00:13:44] Speaker A: Like, so I'm looking at other people thinking, man, why do they have it so well together? And why can't I be that way? Why am I not as disciplined or as godly or as holy? Those are all things that would have gone through my Mind. [00:13:56] Speaker B: Wow. And comparison. [00:13:57] Speaker A: Once you step into. Yeah, once you step into truly knowing who you are in Christ, it's like, I don't need to compare myself with anybody else. No, they. They are who they are, and I'm who I am, and I'm confident who I am in Christ, and. And I can live from there. I'm not trying to obtain something. Just like you said, it's not about merit anymore. It's like I'm actually coming to know and renew my mind into the truth of who I truly am in Christ. [00:14:21] Speaker B: And. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Wow. It changes everything. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So the mess is confusion, it's struggle. And then second question is, what happens when I have a skewed view of God himself? And then there's that shame, you know, the shame of, oh, God must not like me. Right. So he loves me because he has to. Because that's like a doctrine somewhere that we read in John 3:16 at a young age. But he doesn't really like me. And so that's the shame that talks, that speaks to ourselves, that says, you're not right. You don't belong to God. Look what you do. Look. Look what you've done. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. That shame, it's. It's such a. I don't know how to even describe it. [00:15:01] Speaker B: It's. [00:15:02] Speaker A: It's like. Well, I love how. I think it's the path. Right. That calls it the shame song. And I think that it can play so much louder. Just you even bringing up John 3:16, it brought me back to me being a kid going to the Wednesday night program, and I brought a friend from school who wasn't even a believer, didn't go to church, but it was like, you know, I was reaching out to my friends and inviting them to come along. But I remember going there and John 3:16 was like our memory verse. And I was fumbling all over it, and my friend just says it because he just learned it three seconds ago and he could just recite it. And I remember that. I remember that shame song. Like that's the song that I listened to for so long. [00:15:41] Speaker B: Yes, right. [00:15:42] Speaker A: Like it just builds on itself and just buries you. So just. It was just interesting that you brought that up. And immediately my mind went right to that. [00:15:52] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. And. And then it's. It's like that keeps me in bondage. It makes a mess. Right? That makes a mess. And then the other question you put down there, what happens when I live on an unbelief? And then also soul and spirit Which I know is something you wanted to get into a little bit too, right? [00:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I, I think for me this was probably one of the most crucial points to maybe not getting or understanding, but being able to see a little bit more clearly. [00:16:21] Speaker B: That's a good way. Yeah. [00:16:22] Speaker A: That there is a difference between soul and spirit. I could never process it. And so I just really love this. You know, I shared with you off camera here, but I'll maybe go back to it again. Yeah, this is Hebrews chapter four. I'm not going to read it all, but yeah, this is the rest of the gospel book that we've been through in chapter seven is a swing and it's, it's a lot to process. But I think this is one of the. For, for me it was like the dynamic that really helped me to see and understand things. But I just love the way as I was just journeying through this with the group myself here, this just stuck out to me so much more than even the first time I read it. Hebrews 4 starts with verse 9, but we're not going to read all that. But I love this. He says, I didn't know union with Christ. Like just, just that. Just, just union is really hard to process. It's hard, it's hard to explain to people that don't get it right. So this is where, if you're listening, ask God about union and trust him to open your eyes to it. But he says this. He goes into, I don't know what verse is because it's not laid out here. But this is Hebrews chapter 4, verses 9 through 11. So it's somewhere in there. He says the word of God is living and active. Sharper than a double edged sword. I always loved this verse, but I never really understood it. And so I love that God just opened my eyes to this. And then this, this chapter really helped me. So he says this, it pierces that double edged sword pierces as far as dividing soul and spirit. And I was like, okay, well I don't know what that really means. And then the next part of the verse says also it divides both joints and marrow. And I'm like, well, I don't know what that means either because I'm not, you know, I didn't go to medical school. But then the very next part of the verse says it also divides thoughts and intentions of the heart. And it was like all of a sudden it was like just this light bulb. And that's exactly what he's saying. Book here too. It's like Now I get it. Now I see. It was like this, aha. Moment of recognizing that the thoughts and the attentions of my heart are actually two different things. And how do I process that? Like, so. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:27] Speaker A: This is how I can recognize and understand that there is a difference between my soul and my spirit. [00:18:31] Speaker B: Okay. [00:18:32] Speaker A: Because in my spirit, I am fixed. This is who I am. I'm a new creation in Christ. And so the whole chapter is called the Swing. And I think the idea of the swing is that the swing is fixed to a certain point. That's who you are in your spirit. [00:18:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:47] Speaker A: But the swing is swinging. And so that's. That can be my soul, that I can be in this world swinging back right between things. So where I'm fixed, that's my true identity. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Okay. [00:18:59] Speaker A: That's who I truly am. That's the true intent of my heart, is I'm a new creation. I'm holy and pleasing to God. [00:19:09] Speaker B: And it's more than a position. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Yeah. It's way, way more than a position. [00:19:13] Speaker B: So your spirit, who you really are, this is your. This is the new man. Would you say, like, the. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:20] Speaker B: God's spirit inside you that it's right that he's given. You know, Ezekiel, I'll give you a new heart. [00:19:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's all those things that I never could understand, that I never saw. And so God finally opened my eyes, you know, three years ago or whenever it was. It's. It's just amazing. So to think about, in my spirit, my intentions, they're fixed. I'm. I only want to please God. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:45] Speaker A: And I only do please God, because it's who I am. [00:19:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:49] Speaker A: And that's so I don't have to try to please God. I am pleasing to God because I'm a new nation. [00:19:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:54] Speaker A: Yes. And so at the same time as that is true, here's the thing that just kind of blows your mind. At the same time as my intentions are good and pure and right, my thoughts can be askew. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:07] Speaker A: And that's what this verse is saying, that the thoughts and the intentions of your heart, two different things. So my intentions, they're fixed, but my thoughts and feelings, they can waver. They can differ from my intentions. [00:20:18] Speaker B: And it's just to and fro. Right. With the circumstances around us. [00:20:23] Speaker A: Right. And it's. Yeah. And the circumstances, just like I already said, they can be so much louder. You know, that voice of shame can be really loud, really noisy. And I remember, and I think I even wrote this down in here. I'm not really even following my notes much right now. But when I was typing some of this stuff out, it was a perfect example. I was sitting at my desk at home and I was like focused in on what I'm writing. And behind me was a world of just chaos with the noise of a five year old, a four year old and a one year old. Just crazy. But I was just sitting there, like at rest, just typing stuff out, like, this is so good. God, I'm just loving this. And in the meantime, there's just all kinds of stuff happening behind me. And it's like that, that's true. Life right there is like in, in my intentions. My heart is good and I, and I'm holy, pleasing, blameless. It's, it's just a beautiful place to rest in. And the reality is, do I always feel like that? No, I don't always feel that way. But how I feel doesn't change the reality of who I truly am. And so I don't know. I, I, I know you said it's, it's, it definitely can be hard to process and to even explain. Yeah, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think it's meant to be explained. I don't think that it's meant for me to get this across to somebody. It's just meant for me to talk about it and then for them to say, okay, God, I don't get that, open my eyes. It's only by asking God that we can really understand these things that are so far above us. But I just, I love this chapter. [00:21:56] Speaker B: That's beautiful. [00:21:57] Speaker A: You said he didn't like this chapter. I don't think I did either at first, but then I read it again. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:03] Speaker A: And I'm like, man, I love this. But what's difficult is just like I said, to tell other people about it because that's right. How do, how do I, how do I convince you I can't. [00:22:14] Speaker B: No. And, and you know, when we're at rest, I don't have to try. Isn't that amazing? [00:22:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:19] Speaker B: I don't have to try to convince. You don't have to try. [00:22:22] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, yeah. [00:22:24] Speaker B: I mean, this, that's like, Right. [00:22:27] Speaker A: It's very freeing. And we're not walking out of, See, that's why meetings went on forever, because we thought, we can't let this and go without fixing them. And it's like, man, this is, that's why ministry was so exhausting. [00:22:39] Speaker B: Right? [00:22:39] Speaker A: Oh, just living life as your ministry, that's not exhausting because I don't right I'm not I'm not the one that has to fix you I'm introducing to you the fixer I'm introducing to you thoughts and posing questions for you to ponder with God Ponder with God because it's only God that breaks through with yeah the the revelation the reality of these truths because it's so far above us there's no way I can explain it so our stories are good I love that about what we do with with vulnerability with the wild at heart stuff with with everything true face too it's all very relational where we're just able to share stories and just talk life right that's what we do here every single week so yeah such beautiful [00:23:24] Speaker B: stuff I love it love it I love journey with you man growing together [00:23:31] Speaker A: likewise yeah Fellow travelers that's what we are. It's a beautiful thing so I think we're over and out for here Episode 77 let's Talk Life.