Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: But there are times that I come in and I'm going, God, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what's next. And it doesn't take me very long because like you said, I'm actually able to share those feelings with God. I'm able to be honest about my feelings, first of all. And so that actually creates this space in me to actually explore and say, you know what, I'm speaking these things, but those things are not true. And so I'm actually able to rest in the truth. And that brings me to a point of not focusing and dwelling on and just being so full of shame. Same. Instead, I can be so focused on, no, God, you love me, you have me.
And what I'm doing is exactly what I'm supposed to be doing right here, right now. And, and that's a beautiful place to be. So, yeah, I might not always feel free, but I am absolutely free right in Christ. Greetings, welcome. And we're here. This is our podcast called let's talk Life. And Carl and I, we have this privilege of talking life in general terms, you know, family ministry, I guess, the grind, the day to day grind, if that's what we like to call it, which I don't think we like to call it that at all.
But we also get to talk Christ as life. That's really what it's all about. And the reality is that Christ as life and our life in Christ is everything in terms of our family and our ministry and our day to day grinds. It's just everything.
So that's the joy that we get to, to experience on a daily basis and to go back to trust. So Carl, your day to day ground in this last week has looked a little different.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate what you said about. We don't, we don't call that a daily grind, although it can feel like that. Right. It's fascinating how you look at life differently when you recenter your mind back on. Christ is my life. Yeah. So Christ is my life then. He's in, he's in it all. And whether you have snow or ice, snow or ice isn't good or bad. You know, 35 degree temperatures in Florida is not good or bad.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Right.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: It's. This is life. And so seeing Christ in it. Right. So last Monday you and I were together. We're gonna tape something. I woke up with a little bit of a sore throat, just, you know, didn't think much of it and. But the pain continued. It got worse Monday night. Tuesday was so bad. And we had ice and snow. The Wild Heart was. Was postponed, rescheduled.
I can't get to a doctor because everything's closed. You can't get out of town. And so. So by Wednesday, it is such great pain. But I was able to get to the doctor Wednesday, so it took about 48 hours to get to any type of medication to fight this infection. And, man, it just. It wiped me out for a week. And so couldn't. Couldn't really talk much, you know, was like whispering in the house and clapping my hands and I was doing sign language, although I don't know sign language.
So anyway, so, yes, that was my week. And just. I was just, you know, feeling a little disappointed, a little sad that we weren't together. Sad that we weren't doing this. We've been building it up and working on it for months and just realizing, wow, God, you just, like, spared me because I wouldn't have been there. I wouldn't have been there at all.
And.
And you know what? It's going to be even better in two months when it's warmer, more guys might be able to come. And so just. Just looking at it from God's perspective instead of ours, ours is so focused on right now and my plans and my agenda, and it's like, no, God, you're right. Your plan's even greater. And so it's just kind of like a story, is just sort of like a microcosm of life of how we can have expectations or wishes, and they can be disappointing. It can be very frustrating, can be sad. All those, you know, feelings and just coming back to Jesus and saying, jesus, you can. You can hold my disappointment. You can hold my. Right sadness, you can hold my sickness. And.
But yeah, just that's. This is like, how it's life. This is like real life where there is pain and suffering and sadness and disappointment, and that's all in it. You know, trusting God doesn't mean I trust him that I'll feel better tomorrow or he'll fix everything. No, trusting God, is that God, I'm willing to go through whatever you want. I'm willing to give up what I want, what you have for. For me. And it's. It's a beautiful life. It really is a beautiful life amidst. Amidst it all.
Yeah.
[00:04:29] Speaker A: So good. So good. Thanks for sharing. And I'm. I'm happy you're back in action.
And it's.
It is. It's always. Especially when it's unexpected and sickness is never fun anyways. But then just, yeah, There was so much about it. We, you know, Scott and I were flying in. We had changed our plans, our travel plans, and everything about it. And you just look back on it. It's like it's all okay.
It's like. It is funny, you know, because hindsight, we look back on something and say, that's not such a big deal. But when we're stepping into something, we think it's kind of the end of the world. Sure. And that's. That's really the. The crux right there of where are our feelings at in all this? And do our feelings dictate everything? Or are we really living out of that. That. That just that place of trust and real rest and peace and. And I think that's the journey. That's. That's what. That's the life that we get to talk about all the time here on this podcast. But with other people, that's just. That's what we do because that's the life is really just journeying through those things.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: That can be the nitty gritty right of life. That is like, oh, this is difficult and frustrating and tough, but in the end, when I can refocus, and I love this. Last night I had a virtual call with a few guys doing a book study, and just one of the guys just. Just sharing, you know, like, man, life can be so. So complicated and so frustrating, so frightening, so scary. But he said that. But I have this. This group of people. He said, I have this group right here, like in our call. But he said, I also had this group that we met on Saturday night with this little church that he's a part of. And he said, I just have these people that. That, like, I'm sharing all these woes and all these hurts and all these things in my life.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: And.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: And there's a guy just putting his arm around saying, but that's not who you are.
It's like, isn't that such a beautiful thing? That it's not like pointing fingers saying, why are you being so foolish?
Why are you such a wicked sinner? It's like, we don't need to be reminded of those things.
When we sin, we know that we've sinned. We don't need to be told that we're sinners. What we need to be reminded is that that sin is not who we are and that we're alive in Christ and we can trust that reality. And just that reminder, being able to bring each other along on the journey to just remember, remember this reality. Paul's Paul's words to so many that he served in his lifetime was saying, do you not know?
It's like, man, I've been sharing this. I've been equipping you with this. I've been. Do you not perceive it? Do you not understand it? Do you not see it? And that's where we get into that Otto Wayne Jacobson book, you know, where we live Less loved. Yeah, I love that. I have a sticky note still here. Since the first time I went through that, through that book. I had to grab a copy off of my copy. Looks just like yours, Carl, all beat up and bent. But I had to grab a new one because I left mine at home.
So I grabbed a new. A giveaway off my shelf over there. But Living Less Love. It's an incredible story of the father having two sons and one of them wants to receives inheritance. We know the story well, I mean, if you've grown up in, in the church, you've heard it probably a thousand times. And I think there's been a big shift in the way that people have preached it. And I just love the words that he puts to it and, and here, because.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: I think probably the most important aspect of it all is to. I'm just going to start with the end. I mean, like the spoiler, I guess. So he says this. Everything about your life hinges on the answer to this one simple question. Do you know how loved you really are?
Do you know how loved you really are? Because here you have two sons. One of them takes the money and squanders it. And while living, the other one stays back and is serving the father and doing what he needs to do. And the reality is both of them are really failing to live loved.
And that's really the crux of the whole story. It's not about the son that went off. It's not about the son that, wow, you know, it's actually about the father loves you. Will you receive this love? And I think that's the hardest thing. And so, I don't know, we haven't even gotten to our topic, I guess, but it all relates because we are free. Freedom from. And freedom too is kind of the topic of today's talk. And whether we talk about that or not doesn't matter. Just, we just go where.
Where we go with our conversation. But man, I just think here you have two sons. The one took the money and he thought he was free to go do whatever he wanted to do.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: Right, right, right, right, man.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: So he was freedom from. Right. His father's Chores and the things of the farm.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Cheap grace. Right, Right.
It's just.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: It's really interesting.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Don't give him too much grace. Yeah. Yeah.
So they have gotten who they are. Yeah. Go ahead, keep talking. Yeah, well, I'm just.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: I'm just. I'm just asking a question, I guess. What. What is it that we're free from and what is it that we're free to. And why is this important to. To dialogue about the process?
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Well, think about this. Both sons had fear. Both sons had fear. You know, the, The. The one that most of the sermons have been about. I appreciate what you said. I think that this.
This parable has been retold, shaped a little bit differently in the last, I don't know, what, 15 years. Yeah, which. Which is probably good, but the first, you know, 30 some years of our life need to get out and so this rebellious, you know, wishing your dad was dead, just wanting the inheritance now, saying, you're dead to me, dad.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: So then his fear was, well, I can't go back. I can't go back as a son. Right. I. I won't be accepted. I won't be. I've just done too much wrong. I'm not worthy of his love, which. Which I. I think that. I think. I think there were many of us that have had that. Those same thoughts and feelings when it comes to us and God, the second brother, we call him the second. I think. I think. Isn't he the older?
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: You know, and so he's actually the first.
His fear is that. That I've done everything right and I haven't been loved. I haven't been appreciated, I've been overlooked, I've been neglected. I've been this and that. You know, they both. They're both. They're both not living out of who they are. They're both living out of the fears, the lies.
Yes, we talk about. So anyway, I don't know if you want to say anything else about this, but.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: No, I just. I just think it's so beautiful. That was living less love. Those words that Wayne uses in chapter four, if he loves me, just really gripped me because it's not like a title you want to use. Because I don't want to live less loved. It's not like it's not a sticker I want to post on, you know, my car or something, you know, but yeah, we don't.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: We don't have that living less loved on our right, because we don't want.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: To live less love. But when we come to this realization that, yeah, even when I'm dabbling in sin, really what I'm doing is I'm living less love.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Whenever I'm thinking, thinking negatively about my circumstances, I'm actually just living less loved.
And so I love. I love the verse. You know, this is. This means a lot to me anyways, just because it's been my journey. Ephesians, chapter 3. He starts in verse 17 at the end of this chapter. And I'll just read that for you. I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power together with all the saints to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ. And a couple of things. I mean, to be rooted and established in love.
[00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Like, there's a depth to God's love that we can't even perceive. And so it's. And then I love the word grasp. I said this off camera, too. I love the word grasp because this is the prayer that, that Paul is praying, going back to Ephesians, chapter one, that God, would you give them a spirit of wisdom and revelation?
Would you open their eyes? And then you have here that. That you would grasp, that you would see, that you would, with your. With your spiritual eyes, understand you're loved. Because just knowing that you're loved by God really does. It brings so much freedom in your life.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: And so you're free from all that striving and you're free to actually rest in who you are in Christ. And it's. It's actually a really beautiful picture.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: And so, yeah, I love, I love that you brought us there. And just going back to that question, right. Right above it, do you know how loved you really are? And so I guess maybe that's a question that maybe both of us could answer. But when you think about that question, Zach, do you know how. How loved you really are? Like, when. Think of historically in, in your life now, like, what would you say about that question?
How would you answer it?
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Completely different now than.
Than all the years prior to these last couple of years.
And I. I was. That's why this gripped me so much. And I. Why I made a sticky note. And it still sits here since the first time that we read through this book. And it's a prayer. God, show me where I' loved. I. I lived in shame over everything before.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: Right? Right.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: Because I wasn't living loved. So therefore every single mistake that I made, every single, every time I fell short, every time that I. Whether it was sin, whether it was, you know, just. I don't know, making a mistake or saying the wrong thing or just failing. Not, not getting a group of people together for a retreat and we couldn't reach, you know, the, the number that we need. Whatever, whatever it might have looked like I just felt shame.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: Because I wasn't living love. I didn't know how loved I truly was. And compared to where I'm at today, it doesn't mean there's not feelings. Like last week when our retreat was postponed. And you have a lot of feelings associated with it. But those feelings don't turn into shame when you know who you are in Christ. Instead it turns quickly into God. I'm trusting you with the outcome of what's happening, right. I can't control it anyway ways I'm not going to try and control it. I'm. I'm resting in you and I'm trusting you for the results of what's. What this is. But I don't know if that answers the question.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah, and I love this that, that feelings are real. I mean we're not saying. But, but what's so great is I don't have to hide my feelings. Like, like I can allow Jesus into those hurts. I can allow Jesus into those pains. I can trust someone else with it, right. I can bring a trusted friend, a trusted brother, trusted sister and Christ into it so that we can expel any lies, renounce any lies that could be there, right? Or shame and seek the truth. But here's a great thought as you're speaking and you think about the word measuring up or measuring.
And here's what's so fascinating, right? So trying to measure up to his love or trying to measure up to a standard or trying to measure up to someone else.
And Paul literally says that we can't measure the love of God, right? Measureless, you know, and, and so that wow to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is a love of Christ and that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. And so, so here's what's. So here's what's so amazing. I don't have to measure up to anyone else's expectations. I don't have to live up to what anyone else wants for me. I don't have to try and be a better pastor than the guy down the street or to be a better pastor than the latest tick tock guy or what. Like, like no, that Father, what you say about me is who I really am. And I'm going to rest in it. I'm Going to trust that today. And that's what I'm going to live out. That's what I'm all about. The world doesn't need 7 billion carls.
Right. That, that I, that I need to live out the life that God's given me of Christ and Carl today.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: Yes. That's free.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: That's freeing by the way.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: It's so freeing. That's what I was gonna say. I was gonna go to these questions.
Are you free? Are you actually free? And do you always feel free? That goes right along with that question. And what should I do when I don't feel free? And what really does freedom look like? Those are just questions that I threw out there for this conversation. We don't even have time to get probably to all of them. But I just love those first two. Just to process at least. Are you free? What you're saying is just out of what you were just saying is I feel so free to just be me. I don't have to compare myself to anybody else. So I'm actually free from the comparison of other people and what they're doing. And so therefore I'm free to just be me and to be the Zach Erasmus and expression of Jesus Christ to other people. And that's a beautiful place to be.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: Is to just to rest in that. And so. And then the follow up question is, do I always feel free? Well, in the midst of, in the midst of last week's feeling sick for you and having this retreat postponed, like there's an element of not feeling, you know, the ice storm was coming. We already knew that was coming and we postponed it as a result of that coming. Right. And then sickness came. It's like there's an element of. But this doesn't feel very freeing and joyful right now.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: But that's where I go back to that. That shame point is like, because I've shared that many times. I come into my office sometimes and I can't say that about today, you know, praise God. But there are times that I come in and I'm going, God, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what's next. And it doesn't take me very long because like you said, I'm actually able to share those feelings with God. I'm able to be honest about my feelings first of all. And so that actually creates this space in me to actually explore and say, you know what, I'm speaking these things, but those things are not true. And so I'm actually able to rest in the truth. And that brings me to a point of not focusing and dwelling on and just being so full of shame. Instead, I can be so focused on God. You love me, you have me.
And what I'm doing is exactly what I'm supposed to be doing right here, right now. And. And that's a beautiful place to be. So. Yeah, I might not always feel free, but I am absolutely free right in Christ. So I don't know how that all resonates with you.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so good. And. And I even look at freedom differently. And. And, you know, just our mutual friend Scott helped me right away just really identify that freedom isn't a freedom from something like we think of as, like, oh, I'm free now. I'm never going to fail again. You know, that's what we say. Or freedom that I'll never struggle again.
And the freedom to love, the freedom to serve, the freedom to give myself away, the freedom to, you know, just all those things. And I think that's really, you know, Paul's intent in Galatians of freedom, which is, I think part of. Probably stimulated a lot of your thoughts on having this talk today was from. From a commentary on. On Galatians.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:09] Speaker B: From your friend Frank Friedman.
Yeah. But. Yeah, just. I love. I love. And so I don't always feel it. Yeah. I don't always feel free, feel, you know, bondage to religious obligation or bondage to, you know, just what we would call legalism is. Is. Is hard to break free from.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: And. But for sure, I feel more free than I've ever felt before, you know, and.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: So it just comes back to identity, comes back to Christ in me. My starting point.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So this is worse. I am using that. That Galatians commentary from John and Frank. And I love, like on the back cover even, or I think it's actually the subtitle. It says, the fight to stay free.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: Yes. Good. Good phrase.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: And I love that phrase. And again, it's a. It's a phrase that we can also misunderstand.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: Because I could take that from a performance mentality of I need to really buckle down and I need to fight really hard.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Where's the fight coming from?
It's really that. That's what freedom truly is, is that I can actually stand in. And that's what I love. You know, even the armor of God, I. I've always misunderstood that too. I took the same approach that I need to. I need to put this on every single day.
And when I come to realize that it's really. It's less physical and it's more of just this mental renewing of the mind and trusting of.
That's where the fight really is. It's this mental battle that we're always fighting against because there are a lot of feelings. We don't know what to do with those feelings. And men generally just are like. We don't talk about feelings, we just suppress them and we just hide them. We certainly don't talk about them with other people because nobody wants to hear them. And everybody thinks that we're just a wuss if we do. And so it's just all. It's all buried.
And then all of a sudden there's this explosion because we, you know, and then there's pretty much the cycle that most people are going. Experiencing in life. And so, wow, when we can actually come to this place of resting in and knowing who we are in Christ and then have people in our life that can remind us, you know, you're not living loved. Like, how about you trust this reality because you are a new creation and to have somebody come alongside you say, okay, yeah, you did these things, but that's not who you are. Those are all fantastic reminders.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Of this fight that we are in. There is a fight to stay free.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: It's this men. It's this mental thing that. Because we always want to get back into the. Into the physical, fleshy realm. And instead it's like, okay, God, I'm trusting this reality of who I am in you. And as I trust that, then the things in the physical realm also actually come to be because now I'm living out of the fruit of the spirit instead of out of my own efforts. And it changes everything.
So it's pretty awesome. Pretty awesome.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: That's a great way to put it. A way to put it. It does take a fight. It takes intentionality, but it's no longer our merit. It's no longer our merit that he's. That he did it. That Christ did it. He did it all.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: Yep, yep. Yeah.
So, God, we're trusting you with that reality in our lives presently.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Right.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: So we're. Our time is. Is up today. And it's always a joy to. To talk life and to just be that reminder in each other's lives and others that we're dead to sin and we're alive to God in Christ. Thank you, Jesus.
